Saskatoon real estate: Week in review (March 30–April 4 2008)
Saskatoon real estate listing inventories grew again for the fourth consecutive week, this time rather substantially, as 197 residential listings were added to the Multiple Listing Service database. At the close of a week that saw the greatest number of new listings since we started our weekly reviews, total active listings were up from 470 units last week to 543 units including 344 single-family homes (houses) and 149 condominiums. An additional 49 MLS listings appear in the conditional sales category.
Sales remained brisk with 92 homes reported as sold. Nearly two-thirds of the sales activity occurred on Saskatoon’s east side, skewing average selling prices to their highest point on record, $319,639. It should also be noted that there were three sales recorded above the $800,000 mark, which boosted the average further. These three sales essentially push the average price up nearly $25,000.
Overbids were less frequent once again with only a third of homes sold reporting prices which exceeded list price, but the average overbid did makes some small gains over last week, reaching its highest point this year at $17,491. During the same week last year, 70% of homes sold went above the asking price by nearly $21,000 on average. At that time, there were just over 250 homes for sale including properties that were conditionally sold. It’s a different market indeed.
Notable sales
- Briarwood two-storey under construction (2,450’) goes over by $98K to sell at $898,000.
- Wildwood apartment, 810 square feet sells $20,000 over at $198,000.
- Nutana apartment, 915 square feet sells for $307,500.
- Avalon bungalow, 860’ with a single garage sells $25K over list at $315,000
- Haultain bungalow, 785’ with a single garage brings $272,500
- Nutana area two-storey, just under 2,100 square feet fetches $875,000.
See a Google map displaying the boundaries of Saskatoon real estate “areas” here
Data collection and calculation for our statistical reports
I’m always happy to answer your Saskatoon real estate questions. All of my contact info is here. Please feel free to call or email.
Follow our daily updates on Twitter @SaskatoonHomes.
Norm Fisher
Royal LePage Saskatoon Real Estate
There's 130 Comments So Far
May 14th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Good to see the market showing some signs of slowing down (more on the market). Maybe we will see properties at what they are really worth instead of agents, sellers and buyers assuming that square footage alone determines price.
I am still amazed at the price increases from the Royal Lepage Report:
Saskatoon $340000 in Q1 2008 versus 226250 Q1 2007 average. In one year we have been priced out of the market for detached bungalows. Something is wacky here. What are young people to do? Winnipeg, Regina Montreal, London, etc. all look much more inviting in terms of prices.
Norm, any thoughts on how prices will be affected going into 2009 for Saskatoon?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Looking better again this week, it’s great to see that inventory continues to rise! Sure overbid amounts are still ridiculous, but if buyers don’t realize that the market is cooling they’ll still be in panic-mode.
A couple people that I know whose houses are on the market haven’t seen very many potential buyers come through this past week. It probably has more to do with the crazy asking price than anything else, but I’m remaining optimistic that this is the turning point! :’)
May 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
This years market is a different market. You cant compare last years to this years for numerous reasons.
1) Last year you could purchase a home at this time of year and put you 20% down and have a nice cashflow for investment property. This drew TONNNNNNNNNS of out of province and in province investors to this province. You cant do that anymore at 350k. Your payments alone would be almost $1700 + tax + Insurance. Very few houses rent for 2000 a month.
2) Affordability. Anyone can afford up to 200,000. With 40 yr amortizations someone making $45,000 a year with no debts can get that mortgage. Now at 300,000+ you need dual incomes or one LARGE down payment to have a hope.
3) Fence Sitters. Dont think just yet that your in the clear. The bussiest months in real estate are May and June….Most buyers sit on the fence until spring just to see what is happening and with warm weather brings people into the buying mode.
4) Negative Neds & The Deal Killers “AKA. the Parents” I cant begin to tell you how many of these guys I know. Woulda, Shoulda, Coulda, I Paid This 20 years ago, Had This, Sold That, Shoulda done this….Now the markets going to crash. Ever heard the “wise” parents say this. I dont understand how someone who hasnt been involved in a market for numerous years is so smart when it comes to todays market. Or the guy who’s still renting because 2 years ago told me that real estate is overvalued. Well either everyone’s a fool and the wool is pulled over my eyes or their still saying I coulda and Shoulda on their couch today.
5) Intrest Rates – Prime is sitting at 5.25% so currently you can get a variable mortgage at 4.65%…now they are predicting a further .50% decrease on April 22nd alone. How much more can a buyer afford each .50% in intrest rate drops? I’d say around 10,000 more…so With talks of another 1 – 1.50% further cuts in prime this year I can still see further increases to come. Last year intrest rates remained pretty steady and were higher then they currently are
All of these reasons attribute to last years insanity and this year soo to be insanity again. Yes you wont see $50,000 overbids but you will see moderate price increases I predict until late august and then a leveling occuring at that point in the year. But do you wait to pay 10% more come that time….Time will tell, are you ready to leap off that fence yet?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Good analysis Brett, I pretty much agree and see a very strong year again for Stoon. Gotta love the “Negative Neds & The Deal Killers” – count my brother in there – I begged him to buy in 2005 but the said it was too expensive ….
Brett said: “you wont see $50,000 overbids”
Take a look above again:
“Briarwood two-storey under construction (2,450’) goes over by $98K to sell at $898,000.”
May 14th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
I think this year’s trend is similar to last year, except that it’s showing signs of leveling out sooner. Last year, we saw increased prices through June and then a fairly stable environment for prices through the balance of the year. I won’t be surprised if things cool off well before the end of June. If we keep seeing inventories increasing by 50-75 units a week there will be lots to look at. I’ve got a guy coming tomorrow to look at condos from 250-300. There are 25 homes available so he’s not going to have to jump on the first one he looks at.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
I ran across this article by Cole Murphy. I think it makes a lot of sense. It’s a bit long, but see if you can spot where Saskatoon is in the cycle:
Any location can be the correct location to invest in real estate as long as the timing is right. There are four cycles of real estate investing and the cycles can run from 7 to 40 years depending on the intelligence of the local government. These cycles are Buyers Stage 1, Buyers Stage 2, Sellers Stage 1 and Sellers Stage 2.
Buyer’s Stage 1 – strategy buy and hold.
1. Oversupply of properties on the market.
2. Prices and rents are falling.
3. You will see a spike in the properties time on the market.
4. Unemployment is at its highest.
5. New construction is overpriced and sales are stagnant.
6. Construction jobs are at an all time low.
7. Foreclosures are at its highest rate.
8. Investment properties are not being purchased or being purchased at a slow rate.
Buyers stage 1 is a declining market and you will need to shop around for a good investment because you do not know how low the market will go. If the local government is not taking action at this point then the market turnaround will be delayed and more care will be needed taken. Always purchase a new property with a lot of equity and a good cash flow to help minimize your risk.
Buyer’s Stage 2 – strategy buy and hold – also known as the Millionaire Maker.
1. No new construction.
2. Demand for housing is increasing sharply.
3. Properties time on market is decreasing.
4. Rents and Prices for property are at its lowest.
5. Foreclosures are starting to decrease.
6. Job growth is increasing.
7. Rehabbers are purchasing an increasing number of properties.
8. Fewer properties are getting on the market.
9. Demand for properties is increasing because buyers are able to qualify at the low prices.
Buyer’s stage 2 only happens after the local government is starting to attract new business into the area. For every one new job brought into the area three new jobs are created. These newly created jobs are the butchers, bakers and candlestick makers. In other words the support jobs that are needed to service the new people in the area. I believe that the most important thing to watch for in this market is the job growth rate. New people coming into the area will require housing which will drive up the price. Your local economic adviser counsel is a good place to look.
Sellers Stage 1 – strategy buy and sell quickly.
1. Demand for property is increasing.
2. The time on market for properties in decreasing.
3. Property taxes are on the rise.
4. Unemployment in decreasing.
Seller’s stage 1 is a very risky time to be investing in property because you do not know how long before the sellers stage 2 will occur. Be sure you know the signs of the next phase so you can get out of the market at the best time.
Sellers Stage 2 – strategy sell, sell, sell.
1. Supply of properties has sharply increased.
2. Time on market is increasing.
3. Construction of new homes is increasing.
4. New job growth is slowing.
5. New real estate investors are jumping in.
6. First time home buyers are increasing.
One of the ways to watch for new construction of new homes is to check with the local building permits department. You will be able to pick up some good deals from the new first time real estate investors that jump in during the sellers stage 2 market. Always do your home work prior to investing in real estate.
Of course, a bit of a simplistic view … but it is of interest to note, which of the 4 stages of markets we are in right now.
Principles are principles.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Callum,
Looking at your post it seems that Saskatoon is in the last stages of the “sellers stage 1″. I think Norm is right in that if inventories keep up this pace of sharp increases the stage 2 will be just around the corner. Of course this will be healthy for this market and will give it a year or two recovery period before another push.
Winnipeg is buyers stage 2 right now big time.
January avg house price $168,246. February $179,534
Start porting those Saskatoon mortgages (IMO)
Where are the monthly stats???!!!! errrr
May 14th, 2009 at 1:30 pm
Anyone with 45k can afford $200,000? You guys are so full of yourselves.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Alex,
http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/buho/buho_007.cfm
Well according to CMHC Actually you can afford actually $199,381.00 with todays fixed intrest rates, sorry I will be more accurate in my postings just for you. Payment of $1000.00 A month taxes $150 – $200 – Insurance $50 Utilties $200 a month so that tally’s up to $1450.00 According to taxtips.ca your net monthly income at $45,000 a year is $2768.17 so you still have $1318.00 A month or $43.94 a day left over for food, phone and entertainment in your month….seems like one can live just comfortable with that if you ask me. Just depends on the lifestyle you have become acustomed to as to if this causes hardship on yourself. Get a roomate there’s another $600 a month right there now you can afford that new car you want….
May 14th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
If you have no other debt at all….
or if you don’t have kids to provide for…
or if there are no other circumstances that might take up some of that income….
May 14th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I just learned that during last night’s city council meeting, some councillors are now trying to fudge with the vacancy rate numbers. During a discussion regarding “availability rates” and vacancy rates, they fiddled with the numbers to make it look like Saskatoon is enjoying a healthy 4% vacancy rate.
I feel like we’re dealing with the dark side of the force here. It’s as though George W. Bush infused City Council with members of his cabinet.
This latest development really gets me down. It shows the intent of a majority of city council to do whatever it takes to displace people in this city.
Honestly, I don’t know how much longer I can justify staying in this city, because it’s really starting to disgust me.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I also heard they approved another 9 apartment buildings to become condos last night. YAY! (sarcasm)… here comes another rent increase for me!
May 14th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Brett,
Your numbers aren’t really that realistic even when you get it from a calculator. 30% is roughly what’s affordable from a person’s Gross income meaning at $45k would be $1125 a month. Subtract the taxes fo 150-200, insurance 50 utilities 200 and you are left with 725 a month to pay out. None of these $200,000 mortgages are possible with that low of a payment.
I mean if that’s what the banks go by to calculate affordability (and they WANT to get you into a house) then I would say their numbers are pretty close to the affordable range. It’s not always lifestyle that makes it unnaffordable.
I wonder how these people that claim that one’s lifestyle is too ‘high’ therefore that’s the reasoning they can’t get into the market…
Me personally, I don’t want to be living with roommates at Age 30…I don’t need a new car, but to say one’s lifestyle is probably too high isn’t always correct either…what kind of lifestyle would be ‘acceptable’? No gym membership? No car? maybe walk everywhere? living on rice and kraft dinner? no cable, etc etc…
I don’t mean to come off as defensive but i really wonder what people think would be an acceptable lifestyle to have in order to ‘afford a place to live’. I think that’s why a lot of us are still renters, because at the end of the day, I want to kind of enjoy my chicken, enjoy my time at my gym, going to a movie or two, or out for coffee once in a while….instead of digging into a house hole where all i can do is pay to have shelter and not really have any sort of life.
I will remain a renter for these reasons…I won’t jump into buying some crapshack JUST so that i own a house. renting may be throwing away money (as some people say) but i’d rather throw away money than throw away my life for a house that won’t really give me anything but large bills.
I will be moving somewhere affordable eventualy and re evaluate for myself.
sorry a bit long winded here. i need coffee
May 14th, 2009 at 1:34 pm
Has anyone else noticed….how when they have the ‘conversion time’ in a building, how rent magically goes up and up and up DURING the conversion? Mine will be hitting 750 in July when it was 530 in december…
May 14th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Those numbers are pretty misleading.
For one thing, a “Net” income figure is quoted, rather than a “Gross” income figure. A net income of $33,218 really equates to a Gross income of close to $50,000 a year based upon the federal and provincial income tax rates, and the various other payroll deductions (source here)
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html
The average income of a Saskatonian is not $50,000 per year. Two people in a household, each earning the average Saskatoon income, would not be currently able to afford an average house in the market.
4.65% mortgage? That’s a nice looking number, the reality is that most average folks would get approved for around the 6% mark right now.
For anyone looking to buy here, just pick a price range, and have a wander through MLS. Compare the type of place you could buy elsewhere in Canada (check some of the former “hot” markets), as compared to Saskatoon. You only need to look in these former “hot” markets as a beacon for what will happen here, in due course.
I don’t have my head buried totally in the sand, however, I think that it will be another good year for sellers here due to the simple supply and demand issue, as well as the hype surrounding the housing market.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
Sometimes, you must sacrifice for what you want. Younger people these days seem to think they are immediately entitled to the things their parents’ took a lifetime to build – a home, a new car, fancy TV’s with cable, a new lawnmower when you get that home . . . . When we bought our home, we could not afford to have cable. We invited friends over to our house for coffee, rather than going out. You can invite many people over for a $6 new release, and the price of the evening does not increase regardless of 1 or 6 people watching it. When we bought, it was less than 100K, and it was tough then. Now we’re selling for more than 250K (less than 5 years later) to buy a larger house at 350ish. The sacrifices were worth it. We put a lot of work into the house to make it a home for us, and as well for whomever buys it. Our kids will have a good memory of this house (rather than a small cramped apartment), and they will have an amazing house when we move to complete their childhoods in. As well as having instilled within them how much pride you can take in a job well done, and in owning your property and maintaing it well. And we walk every day. Nature, fresh air, community is good. When you set your priorities, your goals become clearer. If your priorities are a gym membership and a coffee house, fine. There are many that aspire for different things than you (equally as many who won’t make those sacrifices, I will admit). Just a thought . . .
May 14th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Yes there are many good points that you bring up. But don’t assume that everyone is ‘living’ with someone either, as in a significant other. The thing is it worked for you guys and that’s fantastic, but also other people will have other things that are important to them, and by saying that i’m not meaning going out for meals all the time, or buying this or buying that etc. “These days” is a good term but i wonder how relavant it is to today…”these days” may have worked as a phrase a couple years ago, but today “these days” are a lot more impossible to get in the market than they have been.
Walking everyday is fine if you are close to your workplace, the fact is a lot of people aren’t that close, becuase cities aren’t set up like smaller suburbs where you can work locally and walk to work. Nature and fresh air is good for sure.
Saying that my priority is a gym membership is like saying i’d rather buy an apple than a car…they are a bit of a different thing.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Thomas and Jesse’s numbers are much more accurate than Brett’s. I’m always amused when people tell me I can get a 4.5% mortgage, when the average rate is 6 to 7%.
Brett’s numbers aren’t accurate, but even so: $1318.00 a month after housing costs will pay for food, entertainment and clothing but won’t cover retirement savings, the cost of buying, insuring and running a car, emergency savings, debt repayment (student loans, LOC) and property maintenance costs (for when the furnace goes out or the roof leaks or the lawnmower breaks down). This doesn’t include luxuries like vacations, gym memberships, or the cost of sports and classes. And raising a family, with all the cost associated? Forget it.
I live a very frugal life at the moment — no car, no vacations, little spending — since I’m paying down student loans. But that’s been for a couple of years, not for the rest of my life.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
Also, Seller — you’re assuming that your ‘hard work’ made the price of your house go from 100,000 to 250,000.
Of course it didn’t — the market did. If you’d bought your house ten years ago and sold it five years ago, you would have made little if any money.
Someone could buy now, make the same sacrifices you made, and lose a little money when they sell in five years. Housing prices don’t always rise.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Can anybody give me an average salary number for Saskatoon? I am contemplating moving permanently to Saskatoon, instead of my current commute to Fort McMurray. The company I would be moving to has offered me 80K/year, a truck, gas card and cell, but even with this money I don’t know if I can justify moving to Saskatoon and being able to afford my current lifestyle and afford a house.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I think it’s 38,000 for Sask as a province. Probably more here: household income is something like 65,000, according to Norm’s numbers, which are around here somewhere.
You would certainly be able to buy something, somewhere in the city for that salary — particularly with no transportation or phone costs.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Wesco,
Just a question, how would knowing the average salary number for Saskatoon influence your decision? You know what your salary would be, average house prices, etc. Why does anyone elses salary matter?
To me, this “80k/year, a truck, gas card and cell”
post is a poorly disguised brag post…..
May 14th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Jay845,
No not really, I’m just trying to weight this income versus ALL of my DEBT load and be able to determine whether or not taking a job here is worth it, considering the price of housing. I have more education debt than the average grad and would love to live in Saskatoon. I was born and raised there and wished that I could live there on a permanent basis.
The reason I was asking about the average salary is that, I was wondering how much the average person makes in Saskatoon to help me evaluate the standard of living in the city. I find it hard to believe that the average house hold income is only 68K when the price of housing is so crazy high. I read this blog site religiously, but I still can’t come to terms with the cost of housing.
I want to stay in the city because it has alot to offer and in the past I thought the standard of living was quite exceptional, however now I’m beginning to believe that the standard of living has severely deteriorated.
THE REASON I POSTED THAT OFFER, IS BECAUSE I WANTED TO DEMONSTRATE THAT SALARIES ARE GOING UP IN THE CITY, HOWEVER ARE THEY GOING UP ENOUGH??????????????????
May 14th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Wesco,
jrochest’s numbers are pretty much dead on of the ’stats’ here. I would say you could do it here. But you have to ask yourself what amenities do you want? Look into how much you’ll be taxed, and so on. Household income is basically a given that it INCLUDES 2 income families. Singletons like myself make about the $38g’s number. (I make $43G’s myself). Standard of living for those that CAN afford it is good. I’d wager you’d be able to, but just crunch the numbers….and one thing people don’t tell you….CHECK FOOD PRICES here too…meats etc…
Good luck Wesco.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Wesco,
Some salaries in SOME sectors may be going up, but our city as a whole needs to see a better rise in wages as a WHOLE to justify this real estate boom. And yes, $80 is sweet. As to what you can afford in Saskatoon… it all depends on exactly what kind of lifestyle you are accustomed to, especially while owing huge loans.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Wesco,
The average family income in Saskatoon was $70,100 per year as of this time last year.
Here’s the source.
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/rankings/bestplacestolive/list.jsp
I think Norm made mention that income rose 7% last year which would make it currently around $75,000.
Although I don’t think Brett makes a good argument, the 6 – 7% mortgage being thrown around is insane. Where are those numbers coming from? Those maybe posted rates right now but we all know the rate you can actually get is a lot lower. I just got a rate of 5.65% on a 5 yr fixed. That’s a standard rate for an average credit score right now. If I went variable rate it would be somewhere around 4.9%
May 14th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Northstar,
4.9% is a dream, the calm before the storm, merely an apparition. There are signs all around that inflation is coming. Fuel prices are up, grain prices have tripled, copper prices, you name it, up. There is inflation in China, India, Brazil, Russia, many other countries I don’t track. The EU refuses to lower rates for fear of inflation. During the last federal reserve rate cut in the US, 2 of the fed members voted for a smaller rate cut because of inflation. Basically everyone we import from has inflation, why not us? I think this country and the US even more so, are in a state of denial since it would cause such severe economic impacts. However the facts are the facts. Basic economics says that inflation will drive interest rates up with a corresponding rise in mortgage rates.
You probably don’t believe me on this but hey, do your own research, double check my facts if you want but don’t go around under the illusion that 5.65% fixed rates are here to stay. Even the market is telling you it thinks rates will go up. Fixed mortgage rates were essentially the same about a year ago, despite the fact that interest rates have been reduced since then. What the market is telling you is that it doesn’t buy it.
Inflation was in the low teens, 12-18% with correspondingly high interest rates in the early 80’s, what would that do to your guys simple little equations housing affordability if it happened again?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Yes – inflation is picking up steam everywhere in the world. However, in North America, the central banks will have trouble raising rates for the next couple of years given the economic weakness in the USA which is structural. The inflation that out caused partly by the declining US dollar actually fuels the Western Canadian real estate boom by pushing up commodity prices. A household income of $70,000 – $75,000 while lower than Calgary certainly compares very well to any BC city – it is about Vancouver’s HH income and above Victoria’s.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
About the interest rates – when we bought our first home on my salary alone ($4200/month after taxes, since the majority of it is non-taxable scholarship income), last spring, our 5 year fixed rate was 5.09%. I originally tried to get my mortgage through the bank I had been with for 20 years, but it was like pulling teeth. Then I went to a mortgage broker who did back flips to get me approved. In my experience it worked out, but others obviously have other experiences.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
38k to 40k a year is the best you can expect to earn in Saskatoon with any two year education or considerable amount of experience to contribute. Which – while I know is certainly not 100% of the circumstances – is a highly common scenario that I think you’ll find many people can relate to.
The 70k figure means nothing and is by no means a tool to base the market on.
With 38k to 40k and other mere mortal expenses (perhaps a 350 dollar car payment) you can JUST BARELY make it for a 120k mortgage. The banks will drag their heels.
Trust me, I know a guy
Also, this guy doesn’t have *any* cable television, is still using a tv to watch movies on that was left behind in his house (circa 1980 “Space Command” with plastic woodgrain finish), does his dishes by hand, and umm…What else?
How else can we throw ourselves at your feet and suffer your judgment of inadequacy?
Basically: Lay off the entitlement speech people. It’s really rude to assume that just because we’ve come up on hard times that we’re at fault for things most aren’t even doing!
I’ve reduced my standards a fair bit since I started living on my own and worked them up.
To act like we can’t work ours up as well is just plain defeatist. At some point in time, the greedy will have to let others accumulate wealth. But that won’t be until we have a government willing to punish the sponges.
If you ask me, it’s the people with tons of cash to spare who act with a sense of entitlement.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Man I can’t believe all the whining and socialist leaning there is. Truly shows the difference between AB and SK. In SK being wealthy must be hidden at all costs, ‘rich’ is a dirty word. These successful people must be ‘punished’ and made to be run out of town.
Canada is a free market economy (albeit modified) and capitalism rules the land. It is the best country to live in in the world bar none. Deal with the hand your dealt and quit whining about it. Your down trodden attitudes and world is out to get you syndrome gets so old so fast.
People that get ahead in life don’t need to be brought down, don’t worry about them, worry about making your own goals and achieving.
What’s wrong with aiming high and becoming successful in Saskatchewan? Don’t want to upset the socialist wagon. Such a shitty attitude and being a Saskie returning home from a successful run in Alberta, it sure is in stark contrast to everyone’s attitude in Alberta (i’m a big fan of bigger, better, faster, stronger).
Buckle up cause the boom is gonna change a lot of things in SK, you can whine about it as you watch it go by or take advantage of what will be remembered as the big boom for a long time to come.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Aiming high is fine. It’s what everyone should strivew for. If you’re going to go around beaking that the ‘negatives’ are all wrong, then i suggest you go buy a car that is a lemon in the lemonaid book….or a house who someone tells you that the foundation is going to crumble in a couple years…i mean if you clearly don’t listen to ANY negativity, you must have a pretty good handle on things. Must be nice going thru life ignorant and blissful.
Everyone needs to hear the good with the bad. I’ve heard a lot of good, and i’ve heard a lot of bad experiences. Are you saying that hey if say a landlord screws you every which way from sunday, to encourage others to go rent from him? or better yet…shut our pie holes is that it. Like you bring up, it’s one of the best countries to live in the world so maybe get off your soap box.
People that get ahead in life don’t need to be brought down, don’t worry about them, worry about making your own goals and achieving?????
By the way if it wasn’t for people speaking up, no one would have any days off…among other things.
Must be nice to have such compassion and ‘balanced’ view of things. I hope your mother is proud.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Something,
If you haven’t heard, Canadian central banks are forecast to cut rates by a full percentage point in the next few months. Some are even saying 1.5%. Although I think you’re right long term, the topic of discussion has to do with present tense. As of right now an average person with average credit can get a 5 year fixed at 5.65%. In 3 – 6 months if a person thinks the rates are going up they’ll probably be able to lock in on a 10 yr fixed for around 5.5%. Whatever happens after that doesn’t matter.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
What brought you home?
Calgary or Edmonton got too expensive? You could buy a house for so much less here?
Might your own decision have some bearing on this discussion?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
Northstar — I’m judging the rates from the posted ones at the bank.
TD mortgage rates
I’m sure you’re right that the US Fed will cut rates again, and the BOC will follow suit. But the US banks aren’t lowering their commercial rates in step with the Federal reserve — at least, they haven’t the last couple of cuts.
All those folks in the US who are in foreclosure expected to be able to refinance when their ARMS reset — that’s why they took them.
Sure I’m a pessimist: reality tends to teach it.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS:
From: Charlie Clark
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:24 PM
Subject: Public request for input on Condo Conversion Policy
Hi Everyone,
Sorry for the short notice on this again.
Executive Committee of City Council is going to be having a formal
debate to change the Condominium Conversion Policy this Monday. If you
want to weigh into this matter as a citizen you can request to speak by
going to the following link and simply requesting to speak to the Exec
Committee meeting on April 14th., you can also write a letter to Council
from that link as well. You must do so by Wednesday morning at 9am, (as
I said, sorry for the short notice)
http://www.saskatoon.ca/org/clerks_office/council/council_write_a_letter.asp
Some current thoughts on this issue…
In my opinion at City Council last night the tact taken by Admin and the
majority of Council raises real concerns. There were many doubts raised
about the validity of using vacancy rates as a measure of vacancy, and
instead many other presumptions were introduced to argue that when the
CMHC (which is the widely recognized conventional measure of vacancy)
assesses the vacancy rate as .6%, it is not actually a concern because
of a variety of propositions that there will be condominiums that go
back on the market as rentals and basement suites created etc.
I feel this is Saskatoon trying to invent its own way of assessing the
housing market in the face of a much more rigorous assesment done the
wider field by housing economists.
The conventional practice in the rest of the country is to identify a
‘trigger’ point in vacancy below which you don’t convert apartments to
condominiums. That trigger point is generally 3% (sometimes 2%,
sometimes 4%). These are not highly contested policies in other
communities, they are generally accepted conventional practice. I have
had a chance to speak to a few housing economists on this and they
support this view.
Councillor Darren Hill has done a good job of summarizing the specifics
of the policy debate below.
Take care
Charlie
—- Original Message —–
From: Hill, Darren (CK – Council)
To: Hill, Darren (CK – Council)
Sent: Tue Apr 08 11:17:27 2008
Subject: Condo Conversion Policy – Debate
Hello Everyone,
Please review the attached ad – I am sorry for the short notice but I
just received a copy of it this morning.
If you want to submit a letter or an application to speak about the
condo conversion policy at the meeting on Monday April 14, 2008 – you
must have your request/letter in by 9:00 am tomorrow (Wednesday April 9th).
Please ensure that you will be speaking about the issue at hand – “Condo
Conversions / The Depletion of the Rental Stock / What Should the Policy
Be”. This is what council will be discussing. If your concerns are
rent increases and rent controls – those require provincial legislation
and you should be contacting your MLA.
You can forward me copies of your correspondence – however, I will not
be able to reply as I am travelling for the next 6 days for work and
will have limited access to Council email. I will be able to review
them prior to the meeting on April 14th.
Be well,
Darren Hill
Councillor – Ward 1
May 14th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
Earth to the Saskatoon Real Estate Board: it’s long past time to release the monthly numbers already. This is Earth calling the Saskatoon Real Estate Board, are you there SRAR?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
This is a great discussion from everyone. As far as interest rates go, we were pre-approved at 5.95% about 2 months ago. We have a family income in the low 6 figures, have good credit, low debt… etc.. so it was from direct personal experience dealing with a bank that I came up with the 6% mark.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Thomas,
Did you use a bank or a mortgage broker? I’ve always found brokers save .25 – .5%. I believe the rates 2 months ago were .5% higher as well which would make sense for you at 5.95%
Good luck on your property search!!
May 14th, 2009 at 1:55 pm
Average income was $743 per week in December ($38,636). I think all of the household income data is somewhat dated at this point.
Here is the “today’s rates” page from The Mortgage Group in Saskatoon. This is my mortgage broker and there shouldn’t be a problem for people with good credit ratings to get these rates.
Based on today’s prime rate, one can get an open, or closed variable rate mortgage at 4.5%. A one year closed is available at 5%. 3 year closed at 5.39% and a 5 year closed at 5.35%. The major banks are posting rates which basically start at 7% which is clearly too much.
If you’re in the market for a mortgage, call Bud Jorgenson at 306-717-6530.
http://www.mortgagegrp.com/site/SK/rates.asp
May 14th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Callum,
I’ll phone SRAR today and see if I can find out what the hold up is.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Have been reading the comments, our little “have not” province is a “have” province now with a lot of growing pains to go through. But the question is, will real estate keep going up or take a nose dive?
May 14th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Lynn,
at the moment I would say neither. We will probably see little gains until summer and then a plateau (something like last year).
The busiest time of the year when people look for houses is in the spring and they buy before the summer to get settled in.
As long as interest rates stay low, and the economy stays strong, I don’t see RE nose diving here. Add to the fact even though inventory is slowly growing. There have not been many lots developed since last winter to get an oversupply of housing here.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
Lynn, should the prices keep going up, you will see a exodus out people out of our city looking for affordability elsewhere. If you are involved in the real estate field, a trades person, in one of the resource based fields, or a municipal or provincial employee, you will likely see income growth that will let you cling on financially in our city. Other people, like Alex, however, will grow frustrated and simply take their leave. Many Saskatoon employers have their heads burried in the sand when it comes to wages, and even those benefiting financially from our housing boom (Saskatchewan’s new #1 commodity!) refuse to see why they should be giving their workers a boost to their salary to cope with the higher cost of living. To them, employees are expendable, and worst case scenario the person will get frustrated enough they will just quit and then they have the opporunity to bring someone else in on the ground floor and pay them even less. It’s a win win for employers.
Personally, I hope this whole market comes crashing down to a point that makes Phoenix look sunny in comparison. Can’t say I am going to have any sympathy for home owners new and old. They choose to ignore any of the pains the city is eperiencing like the rise in homelessness and huge affordability issues, all the while taking pleasure in the wealth they acummulate daily off the backs of these less fortunate. From what I have experienced over the past year, Saskatoon has become a city where one neighbour gleefully watches as the neighbourhood around them is evicted to the streets as out of town speculators and investors take over their homes to make way for condo conversions. But they don’t care. They will do anything to keep fueling the booming housing market. To Saskatoon people, its all about the dollars, and if the community around them are getting hurt, it doesn’t matter. What does matter to residents, is building that little bit of further equity that would allow them to buy that third SUV they always wanted to put in their newly added garage. If we could go back in time three year from now and show peope some of our newspaper headlines and what our city has become, we would truly be ashamed. In my opinion, we were more of a “have” province two years ago than we are today.
Money has become the new god for people in Saskatoon. They have chose to given up the friendly, caring, almost small town sense of community that made Saskatoon Saskatoon in their pursuit of greed, and it is truly sad. I won’t miss the new Saskatoon one bit.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
I second the comments made by Adster, and other optimists on this board. I have followed the posts on here for 6 months and cannot believe the nosedive in attitude that has occured. I feel sorry for Norm to have to respond to such negativity on his board on a daily basis.
We are so lucky to have what we have in SK, go out there and get your share (legally of course). I think the citizens of SK have spent too many years with their hands held out, the tone was even coming from the top when we witnessed Lorne Calvert and his equalization lawsuit… we just can’t see a good thing when it is right in front of us.
I didn’t move back here for an increase in my salary (it didn’t happen), I moved back because I can see the opportunity and I want in… but I’m not alone. International investment is banging on the door, they see it too. Are you going to put money into your local economy and invest in the Athabasca Potash and Shore Gold’s of Saskatchewan, or sit on the fence and watch it all happen? You think real estate is overpriced? Then buy SK resource stocks, they are at some of the best prices in five years.
Did anyone go to the Foo Fighters concert?
Cheer up boys, your make up is running.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
CA Student,
Your comments are ignorant and rude. You also prove that some people will avoid confronting an issue simply because it’s a downer on them. Or perhaps it draws upon your mental resources too much.
All of us take the bad with the good. I’m sick and tired of hearing the same boring excuses over and over again. Stuff like “I see the bright side of things” which is just another hatchet job on DENIAL.
Look, if it doesn’t bug you – that’s great. But admit for a second that not everyone is you and things like this will become easier to understand.
There are tons of things I would support on principle or by their own merit – yet I do not prioritize them personally.
It’s called respect for your fellow man, and you’ve shown none.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Does anyone think the market will end up like the situation in the States, pretty scarey? I wonder how many people took extra credit lines out on their new found equity and bought “toys”. I remember when interest rates were 18% and people couldn’t pay the interest let alone touch any principal balances on their outstanding credit.
May 14th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Equity? Anyone that uses equity to qualify for new loans are CRAZY!!! That could possibly be one of the biggest (of many) scams that banks use to get you to borrow money from them. You see it everyday on t.v, use your equity to upgrade your home, take that trip, get plastic suggery, it goes on and on. If it wasn’t such a good deal for banks and lenders alike, do you think that they would be putting all this money into add campains. Using your equity is a foolish game to play and will lead to your down fall if not careful. Al of a sudden your house goes up 100K and you qualify for a loan of 100K that you didn’t qualify for yesterday, how are you going to payback this loan without actually selling your home? Yeah good deal, yeah right.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Alex,
That is a big “pot calling the kettle black” statement Ive ever seen! Your statements on here have their place but its NEVER been open minded and well rounded.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
Not like I feel like fighting/arguing on the internet, but Alex your first statement could not be more ironic, or hypocritical. Please do not come here, call me rude and ignorant, and then imply that I do not have “mental capacity” to confront an issue; that is stooping pretty low. Go above and read your loathing speech about entitlement again and see who is lacking respect and passing judgment in this forum.
I am an optimist by nature, and I am happy with how my outlook positively impacts my life; I’m sorry if optimism offends you.
Lynn, As far as interest rates go, I can’t foresee another 18% interest rate on mortgages in the near future… I hope our central bank has a better handle on monetary policy than they did back in the 80’s
You never know I guess…
May 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
People like to target people like Alex, myself, Heather, anyone basically that has an opinion other than rose pedals and candycanes on marshmallow street. It doesn’t mean that people that bring thigns to light for others are depressed, down, or are in something to ‘win an argument’. It just means there is balance.
Funny usually when quesions are asked of these same people that are living in candyland, they tend to not want to share, not want to reveal HOW they got there or what they REALLY think and why they think it. They just choose to use ‘phrase’ tactics and sayings that try to make the naysayer seem “crazy” and therefore non credible and non truthful.
I’m personally glad CIBC turned me down for any kind of mortgage (well they said i could get $125 grand over 40 years if i paid off my debt @ 7%) because it saved me from possibly buying a crapshack.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
Jesse, Alex, Heather,
You all speak of balance in the discussion and that’s just what myself and CA Student have given you. We’re both positive about what’s happened. In my case I’ve done very well because of the boom and it’s because I bought a house as soon as I could afford one in 2004 (having just turned 22 at the time). Granted I don’t have student loans to pay because I haven’t gone to university yet, I chose to enter the work force immediately after high school and because of that work experience I’m now head and shoulders above my friends just coming out of Uni. I started from scratch as well. So there’s a positive story for you, I assume I will be attacked for it because I have prospered from the boom in more ways than one so of course I have a positive outlook on it.
There’s your balance to all your negativity. I am not attacking anyone personally, but as soon as group of people mentioned above see something like that they are so quick with the personal attacks it makes me ask why?
And Jesse, as you said above in your whiny attack on me, my mom is quite proud that I’m now returning home to Saskatoon purchasing my second house on my own with over 60% down on it and a mortgage I’ll like wipe out within about 10 years.
Adster
May 14th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Hey Adster, congrats on your purchase! We need more positive, hard-working people like you in the city. I also think its great especially to hear the anecdotal evidence of people in their 20’s returning. We need more young people in Saskatoon and Saskatchewan as a whole.
I’m on my second house now in my mid 30’s. I bought a townhouse when I first bought into the market 7 years ago. It was all I could afford then and I was happy to get it. Now I’m in a 4 level split which is a lot nicer than I thought I’d originally end up with. There is also some work to do on it, but I’ll do it over time. I’m afraid I still can’t afford the granite countertops or the 2 sinks in the bathroom but maybe someday, huh?
Congrats again and welcome back.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Jesse, I am going to sit down on this gumdrop stool and tell you how I got my gingerbread house on candy cane lane.
I saved my a** off and worked two jobs while going to university full time. I then joined a professional services firm, earning my CA (tax advice anyone?) and helping people of Saskatoon succeed in their tax planning and small businesses. At the same time, I bought one of your so-called crapshacks and sunk 5 months of hard labour into it to make it a hug and cozy pad. Labour that I did myself, at night and on weekends, after my job and after my homework.
In short, every thing I have is all sweat equity. Happy now? Sure doesn’t make me lose my optimism; some of us get lucky and others have to work for it, that’s all.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
Todd,
I do believe that more younger people are going to come to Saskatoon, but I find it hard to believe that it will be very many 20 year olds, more like 30 – 40 year olds who have accumulated some cash somewhere else. One thing is forsure though, is that the smart up and comers just out of University will not be sticking around just like they haven’t in past. Isn’t it a shame that our young people can’t stay in this province ever? First off there wasn’t enough work for them to stay, and now there’s lots of work but they just can’t afford it. It is a horrible injustice if you ask me that the young people of the province can’t stay here. It was an all old people province before this boom and it will continue to be an old people province during and post boom. Quite a shame……..
May 14th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
I’m sure she is. It all comes down to it’s easy to attack people that haven’t taken the exact same direction as yourself (and successfully made it) as negative and alwyas naysaying when in fact we want what you want, success in our own lives and the ability to get above water. I’m glad you are successful and have chosen to move back here, but don’t for one second think that it gives you the liscence to be condescending and rude to people who’s circumstances you know nothing about.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
CA student,
Good! Like i’ve said before we need to hear more of these success stories. To come onto a board and throw a few ‘you guys are dumb and suck’ becuase we never took the exact route you did is simply rude.
I agree with todd 100%. It is a shame.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Adster,
If you don’t like the SK attitude go back to AB where you were happy and filthy rich. Stop corrupting people here with your bigger better greedier attitude. You are an opportunist at any cost, that’s great, would you like a pat on the back? With the way you talk I highly doubt you are the “Bill Gates” of successful. There’s one example of a man who did well for himself and has remained humble, grateful, and generous. Unfortunately this is not usually the case. It’s the richest who tend to be the least charitable. Might it have something to do with the method these people use to climb to the top of the ladder? I’m sure of it.
Next time you’re using our healthcare services you trying telling your doctor or nurse how he/she was stupid for choosing their profession and for not taking full advantage of the BIG BOOM. Who needs healthcare anyway? Compassion for others, what a silly notion.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Hey Norm,
What’s up with house prices in Confed and Massey? I know they’re newerish homes compared to the core areas, but they don’t have any development and no character. And having lived there as a child I know it lacks many charms that can be found in other neighbourhoods.
Seriously, what’s the deal with people paying close to 300,000 for 900-1000 sqft bungalow in those areas. I certainly can’t explain, neither could my own realtor.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Heather,
You sound like such a deeply bitter and resentful person in your views towards both the real estate market but also in your personal attacks towards people here. I’m not here for that and I’m not pointing at you and saying those things, you seem to take my public comments as personally directed towards you which of course they are not.
You sound so tightly wound maybe you should step back and ask yourself if it’s worth it?
I’m not trying to rub it in anyone’s face, but just give you my side of the story, that’s what forums are for and why they are so great.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:04 pm
Thanks Todd for your positive comments. We are in the same boat with a 4 level split, I’m excited to get my hands on it (moving this weekend from Calgary) and make it mine and slowly improve it as well.
Also, last year my friends (a couple) the same age and a couple other friends moved back from Calgary as well, so there are definitely people in their 20’s returning.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Okay, this is a really massive rant; sorry about the length!
CA student & Adster
You’ve got it wrong: expanding economies are good things, and I don’t think any of the people on this blog would argue that.
If the economy really does boom, it means businesses moving into the province, rising wages and much more opportunity for everyone. People will move here to take jobs, diversifying the economy and the population. All this is good. Really good: boomtowns are interesting places. Who cares if your rent doubles if your salary triples, or if you get progressively higher-paying, more challenging jobs or if you can move from driving a truck to running your own shipping company?
But that’s not what’s happening so far. Things are better, sure: there are a couple of new stores and businesses downtown. But there are few signs of a real boom, unmistakable to anyone who’s been through one:
we don’t have a forest of cranes downtown,
we don’t have banner ads in the papers,
we don’t have companies holding hiring fairs,
we don’t have people flocking here to look for work, we don’t have page after page of job ads in the Star Phoenix.
We do have a low unemployment rate, but that’s because so many young people left that there’s few people to take the low-income service jobs.
A boom creates high-paying jobs and drives up wages in other jobs, and rising wages and a rapidly increasing population work together to drive up housing prices; that’s why high housing prices and a booming economy normally go together. That’s what happened in Silicone Valley, in Seattle with Microsoft and in Calgary and Edmonton with oil. It’s what keeps prices high in major centers like Manhattan and Central London: really big cities make their own mini-booms.
But what we have is rising housing prices without the underlying pressure from new jobs & wage growth. I think this is a bubble. This seems to have been started by good old fashioned rising demand, created by pressure from people returning from AB, ironically because AB is now too expensive. It’s now being continued by people buying properties based on what they expect that property to be worth in a year or so; some are outright speculators flipping for a living, others just ordinary people over-extending themselves expecting to be able to sell the property for a profit when they move in three years. The sharper the rise, the greater the potential profit, especially if you can get 100% financing and so risk nothing; in this context, people will happily take out massive mortgages and live on nothing for a year or two, because they expect to cash in when they sell for a massive profit. This is similar to what happened in small centers like Northern Arkansas, Boise and Cleveland, as well as bigger places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Miami and San Diego: all had speculative real estate bubbles, mostly without underlying job growth. All these economies are currently deflating.
Booms make places richer, while bubbles make them poorer: booms, even when they bust, leave behind infrastructure, money and job skills. Bubbles extract money from the local economy rather than putting it in. In the end, no-one can afford the housing and the area either stagnates (no-one can move because no-one will buy), or falls (as people are forced to sell, because of job loss, illness, retirement, or a move, must accept a price well below what they owe, or have to stop paying the mortgage and go into foreclosure). In the meantime, everyone who bought and held during the bubble is now stuck paying off massive mortgages on properties that are worth much less than they paid, reducing the amount of money in the local economy and essentially ‘burning’ their salaries to buy nothing.
There’s lots of folk on the net who say that bubbles work like Ponzi schemes, and there’s something in that. To quote the title of Norm’s post on Turner’s book: “Every bubble in history has burst”.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
Adster,
Thanks for showing no modesty and being manipulative. You are indeed making personal attacks on others, name calling, and trying to discredit anyone opposed to what’s happening in Saskatoon. You brag about your own good fortune and don’t have one ounce of humbleness. You and Todd are two peas in a pod, hah, that rhymes. You’re not the kind of people I would want to know, and glad I don’t. At least I can begin grouping you together just as I’ve been subjected to SO many times on this blog.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Jrochest hit the nail on the head!!
People have been saying that Saskatchewan is a commodity based economy, and this is true, however the commodities we do have do not create substantial job growth like other commodity based areas. Take our neighbour Alberta for instance. For oil there is numerous jobs created because of the process. To make 2 barrels of oil in Fort McMurray it costs one barrel of oil because of the processes. To get these proceses you have to make huge upgraders and refineries that create lots of jobs. Then there is the pipelines which also take lots of labour to create.
Saskatchewan’s commodities are Potash, Uranium and farming, each of these commodities take very little people to operate and don’t need huge refineries and upgraders to get the commodities. A Uranium mine and Potash mine do not cost close to as much to build in comparison to Upgraders and refineries.
Sorry to say the people getting rich of these comodites are Cameco, farmers and PotAsh Corp.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
jrochest,
Those are some excellent points. I’m glad you took the time to write all of that. I tend to lose steam from time-to-time arguing with the pro-boomers.
Many people come on here to blog about the real estate situation in Saskatoon, which is what I originally came here for. When I bring up any detrimental affects, aggresive people come out of the woodwork and start calling me a left-winger. (like that’s some kind of insult? LoL) Then I tell them to grow a conscience. So it really becomes a back-and-forth. There are some people full of compassion, and then there are people just full of themselves.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
I can argue about politics anywhere– I come here to argue about real estate
And it’s not really about politics at all, although policies can exacerbate or ameliorate to some extent: but it’s really a market feeding on itself, and it’ll go on until it stops. Doesn’t mean we have to like it, or be uncritical.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
CA Student,
The fact that you say ‘hope’ the central banks have a better grasp on things says much. I hope the value of my house is $10 million, but come on, it’s not going to happen. The fact of the matter is, I am presenting an argument for why inflation is a legitimate threat, almost regardless of what central banks do. Lowering interest rates will only increase the rate of inflation. Even if interest rates are lowered, the market is starting to puke those bonds back up. Why would an investor take a 10 year bond (there is always an investor behind every mortgage whether it be a bank, a private citizen, a hedge fund, whoever) for sub 5% when inflation rates are coming in around 4-5%? It’s pure suicide. No, this is an apparition and don’t expect it to last too long.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
So is it the time to buy or sell? It’s a 50-50 situation out there. With the low rates and high prices it almost works out even to having low prices and high rates. Where are the people coming from buying at the high prices? Are there going to be more people coming with money to buy up the ever increasing real estate as the average person really can’t afford the housing, taxes, food, clothing, children expenses, plus the increasing cost of gas, which in the winter will take a big bite out of budget. It’s almost becoming a little unnerving. Plus the increasing cost of education, anyone with students loans and a good paying job will find it difficult to payout on a large mortgage.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Jesse, Heather and Alex,
Sometimes I’m just amazed at how quickly you can get to “rude, arrogant, corrupt, uncaring,” etc.
If the three of you get any more out of balance you’ll have trouble getting back on your feet.
You are so totally intolerant it’s almost ridiculous. If a guy doesn’t jump right into your groove he gets the crap kicked out of him. If we were all sitting in my living room I’d have asked you to leave already. I’d appreciate it if you could make some effort to moderate. You could chose to treat my guests with a degree of respect, or with total indifference but you don’t have to get so vicious over such minor little pokes.
Your self-righteousness is almost too much to take, especially when I consider that you’ve all openly expressed your longing for a market crash. You have a lot of nerve pointing the finger and accusing others of lacking compassion.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:33 pm
Both CA Student and Adster have come on with nothing more than resentment for more socially conscious thinkers.
This shows through clearly and it is made obvious by like-minded individuals who will join in on their discussion but not touch the red-bashing.
These are the kind of people who are empowered by a boom. They had the opportunity, took the opportunity and regardless of the impact on the economy they have – they simply can’t be made to care.
It’s timing in the end. None of you are so skilled as to be little mini Trumps – it shows. All it boiled down to was that you had some money and someone else didn’t.
I don’t know what it is about money that makes you entitled to get more than you need. But there it is. Free markets, persuasive disinformation and greed.
Which brings me to: Story time!
I’m in Calgary this week and I can’t hate it any more. This city is a hive of slaves.
Employers are detached from reality and love that nobody makes them clue in. People work constant, long hours and get paid pathetic wages. You spend so much time on the roads which are just a supercharged testosterone polluted war zone. People are trying to raise their kids into little microtycoons, with no souls. This city is an abomination.
I keep an image of getting home in my head to keep me going through the week.
I was looking for a movie shop where I could find some not as blockbuster and perhaps older titles. We have them in Winnipeg and I have seen them overseas and even in Toronto. They’re the kind of thing you get when a city has soul and character – something Calgary is devoid of.
It was crazy, I couldn’t find a single one!! All the strip malls were doctors offices, money marts and travel agents. Talking to a coworker later on, he said that mom & pop have been run outta town.
I saw more small shops on the way to and at Lethbridge!
Free markets lead to monopolies and here we are with more and more consolidation in the markets. Do you want any bigger of a warning sign?
Is this what Saskatoon wants?! To be hacked up by freeways and generalized by box stores? To run all the small shops out?
It’s so funny to see the free market backfiring on all the people here who are so crazy about it. Their lives have been reduced to a materialistic rat race. The select few participants in any industry can gouge as they see fit. House prices are determined by the highest point that the market can force people to strain themselves. Not on any reasonable true and factual valuation but instead on the opportunity to hold your wealth over someone else’s head.
It doesn’t matter that this process contributes to pointless debt in the Canadian economy. It doesn’t matter that it causes inflation to rise needlessly.
Adster, you made such a generous assessment of Heather, yet it seems like all you want to do is humiliate her. I resent what you said about her and I think you should apologize for what is a blatant and presumptuous insult.
Looking at your hypocrisy accusations, I can’t really see your angle there either?!
What is more likely is that you know accusing someone of hypocrisy without reason or justification sticks amongst like-minded individuals. So it doesn’t matter that you just took a random reason and tacked it on to the end, it’s that you just wanted to try and whine about me in general. You could have said: “Alex, you are a hypocrite and my dog just sneezed.” and it wouldn’t have been any different. Bravo.
I have yet to see a decent argument come up from “the right” on any matters in this blog. They always trumpet compromise, yet the only compromise offered by the rich is: “Let us continue to shark you out.”
Some compromise! It’s just your same old patent polite right wing greed.
Moderation – which it hardly is considering how much the wealthy have today – has never been so hard to come by.
(Add on a copy of jrochest’s big comment, he says word for word what I would have said otherwise.)
May 14th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Dear pessimists, (Heather, Jesse)
I have no problem with pessimism or a balanced viewpoint. What is unfortunate is that a majority of your posts amount to nothing more than whining.
To see posts of balanced view points, see jrochest’ or Lynn’s. It is good to have people bring attention to social issues caused by the boom, or propose arguments to get people thinking about why the boom may not last or the consequences of buying in right now. This usually gets others thinking and provides for a good discussion.
The goal of this blog isn’t 100% agreement. So relax if people don’t agree with you.
What is disturbing, and this is directed mostly at heather, is the cheapshots she is taking about poster’s parents. I find that disrespectful to Norm, to the other bloggers, and to our soldiers who pay the price for free speech so heather can anonymously call people names. Pretty pathetic to me.
People should be encouraged to share their opinions without fear of being bullied off the forums.
Norm, is it possible to censor some out parts of people’s posts or maybe post a link to guidelines for the forms?
Sorry if I am the only one bothered by this.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Norm,
Thanks, I think we were typing at the same time.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
Lynn,
Bless you! You’re trying damned hard to get a real estate discussion going here.
Sorry, I’ve been swamped all day and haven’t had much time to be present here.
Going back to our first question. I see signs that things are beginning to level off a bit. Last year, we saw gains through June but this year we are seeing inventory levels start to climb and I think we’ll also start to see demand cool off because of the sharp increase we’ve experienced over the past 18 months. It is very difficult for local first-timers to enter the market and I feel that demand is primarily coming from people relocating here. There’s certainly some “move-up” buys happening locally as well.
US sub-prime? Well, most of what I’ve read suggests that we are far less vulnerable to this kind of thing. Most Canadian mortgages are being serviced properly and we haven’t been so reckless in our borrowing practices, though they haven’t been perfect. Of greater concern to me is the potential for a total meltdown of our financial markets because of the sub prime mess. It looks like the US government is determined to try to prop all of this up and it could lead to a total collapse. I know how terrible that sounds but it seems like a complete mess to me. Very scary.
As far as affordability is concerned, I’m also at a loss to understand how it continues but the situation in Saskatoon is not unique. I’m sure that we could point to hundreds of other markets were house prices have passed the point which seems fundamentally sound.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
Norm,
How can you come up with that impression without rearranging the order of the conversation?
With things like: “Did anyone go to the Foo Fighters concert? Cheer up boys, your make up is running.” at the end of a comment, what do you expect?
What about Concerned, the now reigning king of irrelevant sympathy stoking with: “…and to our soldiers who pay the price for free speech…”
I’m sorry, what?
It seems more like you’re cheering for the home team than trying to hunt down injustices in the discussion. I find myself almost constantly on the defensive dealing with some of the most wild and baseless accusations. Hypocrisy, my own greed, negativity and what else? Where are you when it’s a pileup against the left?
I’ve made points that still go uncontested here and every time I bring them up, people go on a rampage beating around the bush. I’ve always wanted and tried for relevant discussion which is housing and due to current issues: affordability. Affordability is governed by economic and social policy, economic policy is in disarray and social policy is being clawed back.
But I can’t keep that topic for long before it’s hypocrisy this and tree-hugger that. A barrage of nonsense that even if it was true doesn’t prove me wrong! It just proves that I’m of the mindset to generate the points I make?!
At best it’s dirty conversation manipulation.
*Especially* when there are more than the three people you addressed who have negative reviews for the Saskatoon market.
Don’t mistake me here, I take on lots of values from many different mindsets. The fact that I and many others take more from the left is simply a reflection of a good nature.
It really is time to look at the priority of profitability versus good community building.
So, for all that it’s worth, my uncontested point:
With all the carnage around us, how can we – with a straight face – adopt the same policies as the US and Alberta? How can anyone look to the displacement, the inflation, the outright massacre of local economy and say “I’d sure love me some of that!”
That’s free markets. That’s libertarianism. To stand for it is to stand for everything that has contributed to the reduction of the quality of life for average people.
Speculative investment needs a thick collar and a short leash for the next while so that regular people, backed by mere mortal financing can get on their feet again.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Alex,
This isn’t a play for sympathy. Funny you would say that with a Wing(base) in Winnipeg.
You and others think life is soooo bad, why don’t you enrol, do a tour in Afghanistan, see what real poverty and suffering is (there is real suffering in Saskatoon, Winnipeg and other places, but it is more related to over a million needles being handed out than to wah, wah, I can’t buy a house)?
I am not denying there are social problems created by the boom, and that some people are greedy. Some people are also successful, hard-working, yet also have a conscious and are orientated to social justice.
It makes me sick to hear people whining in a country with all the freedoms, rights, healthcare, and other benefits Canada has to offer. Thats all. Life could always be better. But it could be a lot worse.
Can we please talk about real estate now?
May 14th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
Thank you Norm for your comments. Seems there are many different personalities on this blog and it would be very boring if we were all the same. Saskatoon, it seems to me, is going to become Saskatchewan’s Calgary or Toronto, I have a feeling that prices will continue to appreciate, just hopefully at a reasonable rate. I am not from the City, but have been looking around for some realestate, but with prices climbing and the cost of living rising, and the credit crisis in the States one must really look at all the costs involved before signing on the dotted line.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
I came from North Alberta and have started job in PCS mine. Now the situation is that I bought hoouse in East side in Jan. 2007 and I am comfortable with large down payment and high salary but can everybody afford it? The taxes are going high again. Job situation is good but it can not be compared with Alberta.
I can buy cheap house in Edmonton/Calgary. I can locate job easily in North AB. Shouild I still stay in Saskatoon? The answer is simple. NO NOT AT ALL
In present situation, the cross province migration will be zero in coming days and most of the skill trades will like to move Alberta.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Concerned/Whoever you are,
What is this you keep saying about me bad-mouthing someone’s parents?!? Could you show me where I said this? Your facts about me are so mixed up it’s astounding! I have a great life, I’ve said this right from the very start, and I’ve certainly never “whined” about it.
Alex,
It’s pretty easy to target outspoken people who have little support. I guess we should have seen this coming. :’)
Norm,
Sorry for angering you, I was out of control. From now on I’ll do my best to ignore those who come on here and make false allegations of my integrity.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
I second what FT.Mcmurray_guy stated and agree with his comments 100%
Norm,
Can you provide all of us bloggers with a reasonable estimate of how may houses / condos have been sold to speculators over the last 2 years in Saskatoon? You’re forsurely the best person who can provide this information and I bet many of us would find this information interesting and definitely useful. Just give us your best estimate from people you have talk to in the industry and from sales that you have made, I think this info would help me feel better about buying or not in Saskatoon.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
Heather D.,
I do owe you somewhat of an apology. The one comment about parents was from Jesse at 6:49 on this thread. I looked for the other one and couldn’t find it and don’t really care to waste too much time. It may have been on the 30th when you and smokey were attacking Todd. You made some kind of comment like “he’s no longer with us, lets have a memorial”.
From your 4:52 post: “You’re not the kind of people I would want to know, and glad I don’t.”
It is these kind of digs that are really unnecessary. You do not know adster, so how could you possibly assess his character? Maybe it is someone you know and do get along with.
As for other comments, maybe think your posts through before you post. You accused me of agreeing with Todd. It is not that I do or don’t, but because I don’t think they should be bullied does not mean I agree with them. I would do the same if someone were bullying you.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
Hey Norm , I can tell when the real estate market is hot by seeing the number of posts on here . It’s going to be a hot Spring.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Alex,
I acknowledged the “poke” but it was pretty benign and general. You immediately follow up with “ignorant, rude, draw on your mental capacity, hatchet job of denial” and the implication that he has no “respect for fellow man.”
And then, the gloves are off.
Excuse me, but I think this is a bit of an over the top attack on someone for what was said. I don’t understand why we need to pretend that we have such depth of insight into someone’s soul, even if they may have made a stupid and flippant remark.
Don’t get me started on the Calgary story. Are you just an incredibly enlightened man living in a world of darkness? Do you believe that you know better than I do what’s best for me? Does everyone need a lesson on how to care about their fellow man?
In case you’ve forgotten, I’ve taken greater steps to moderate attack against you than any other person who has ever visited this blog. I’m only saying that in answer to, “Where are you when it’s a pileup against the left?” Almost all of the attacks that come your way evolve from discussions similar to this one. Flippant remarks following by pointed personal attacks which call character into question. You pretty much get what you dish out.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Wesco,
It would be nothing but an ignorant guess. You couldn’t turn around without bumping into an investor last year. I largely avoided working with buyers through most of 2007. It was not the kind of market that I could easily adjust to as a buyer’s agent. The “guess how much over list we should offer” and “hey, let’s not have any conditions at all” isn’t my cup of tea.
Investors are not nearly as visible this year, though there are a few around.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Concerned,
“Funny you would say that with a Wing(base) in Winnipeg.”
Okay, now you’re just madly off in some personally valuable direction and you need a reminder. Badly.
I’m not sure if it dawns on you, but we aren’t exactly a very military society. There may be a few people who are all about that kind of stuff, but having a base doesn’t suddenly obligate me to worship military decisions without merit.
Current military endeavors included.
Once again, I’m defending myself from wild baseless assumptions. Where does all this come from?!
First off, I grew up in Winnipeg’s North End, one diagonal block from the McGregor Armory. That means in summer, some afternoons I’d hear their band practicing the Star Wars anthem. Sometimes I would go to their exhibits, even as recently as this winter!
It is also a childhood tradition in that immediate area to have played on and around the tank they have on display there.
Second, war – whatever you value it at – has no bearing on what I’m trying to express or this discussion. You insult the suffering you reference by using it to guilt others.
Third, it’s no secret the “war” going on right now is an appeasement for the Americans and a huge mistake. Don’t try to lodge it into every discussion just because you somehow think it is important.
In World War II people fought for and immediately after lived for social values. I don’t hear you or anyone standing up for that.
The home I bought is rife with evidence of the post-war family that lived in it. In all the little things they left behind and all the touches of history in the house. Socialism was definitely on their mind.
But, as far as I’m concerned, everyone is being awfully unpatriotic for wanting corporations and greed to dominate so much…
Let’s just normalize patriotism and military obsession out of the discussion, okay?
May 14th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Mike,
“What’s up with house prices in Confed and Massey?”
Good question. The average between those two areas in March was $265,000. I think it’s an affordability issue really. You can still buy something half decent there for that price. Most east side homes at that price would require another load of cash after the purchase.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Concerned,
“People should be encouraged to share their opinions without fear of being bullied off the forums.
Norm, is it possible to censor some out parts of people’s posts or maybe post a link to guidelines for the forms?”
Should people be encouraged to share their opinions, or should they be censored?
I keep a close eye on my blackberry to ensure that nothing truly revolting has a long life but I’m not sure I can offer more than that at this time. Some days I can’t find time to comment myself. Do you think anyone would read a guidelines link?
May 14th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
I’m so glad I stopped responding to this nonsense a while ago. It is amusing to read though
I bought this rock a number of years ago. Although the rock was colourful, smooth and polished, what really got my attention was the phrase that was edged in to it. It said “Everything is a mirror”. It was an epiphany for me at that time as I quickly realized how true it was. I started to realize that everything that got me upset in life was a direct reflection of me and had nothing to do with the situation.
It’s funny reading people get so upset about something someone else says and then 10 posts later they’re doing the same thing that they disliked happening to them. If you want to know the truth about someone, find out what gets them upset
May 14th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
J Rochest made some good points about whether Saskatoon is entering a true economic boom. I forward an example.
The other day I saw a help wanted sign in the window of a popular Calgary restauraunt where the specialty is fried chicken (take out only). The sign was advertising for cooks at $15 an hour. That may seem like a good wage for that position but 2 people working at that job could not afford a home here. That is a prevalent boom condition.
If Saskatoon is going to experience a boom, it seems the real estate section is leading it rather than the other way around.
Norm I admire your patience and fairness in moderating this blog.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Northstar,
Some wise words, and you can also learn a lot about a person when you find out what amuses them. Something else to think about.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
Northstar,
I enjoy the zen and I agree with you that it can help. I think there are a lot of things you can get a handle on with those ideas. But to use that as a tactic against everything is just plain silly. It also gets very dismissive when you wax philosophical on everything you disagree with but can’t contest.
I used to think the same way. That you can overcome anything with your perspective.
It isn’t always true though, all the explanations start to lack reasoning. You get into this habit of disinfecting your surroundings with the idea that if it challenges you, “who cares!”
The trick is not to paint everything that troubles you as unworthy of your attention. The trick is to pick things that truly are unworthy of your attention and handle them as such.
Calling it “this nonsense” and trying to denigrate what we say may justify it to you, but it leaves a large untraveled distance for others.
If you walk away from everything, you have no impact and participation is half the mark!
May 14th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Norm,
Well I’m guessing there was a high percentage of sales that were from speculators over the last 2 years. For my own case, my parents have bought 4 condos in the last year and a half and all they are doing is speculating. They have sold 2 already for a decent buck and still are holding on to 2 more. A couple of my uncles who live in Saskatoon also have done the same thing and I’m guessing they have bought around 8 condos and houses in the last year and half. So right there that is 12 speculator sales and I’m guessing there is whole lot more out there. I don’t agree with their tactics and believe they are hurting Saskatoon real estate and the economy for that matter.
Anyone else have any comments in regards to speculators? I would be happy to hear it.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Good Lord People (you know who you are):
A good portion of this dialogue is absolutely pathetic. Besides the whining and sniveling, the following comment from Jason is absolutetly rediculous:
“Can’t say I am going to have any sympathy for home owners new and old. They choose to ignore any of the pains the city is eperiencing like the rise in homelessness and huge affordability issues, all the while taking pleasure in the wealth they acummulate daily off the backs of these less fortunate.”
Seriously buddy, every homeowner? Gee, let me go sell my house (and donate the equity) so I can live in the street as a display of my empathy. Hell, I should invite my hard working parents and grandparents to do the same.
Instead of sitting on a blog and sniveling (not directed only at Jason), I took my ass back to school, got an education, could barely afford the necessities of life throughout and graduated with student loans and bank loans of which will take me 14 years to pay off. My motivation? Free rides don’t exist. Oh yeah….. and I bought a house of which my daily hard work is paying off and of which I do not apologize for. Your comment is even more pathetic when I think of the generations before us and the hard work they put forth for the purpose of ownership.
It is lazy “the world owes me a living” people like you who give truly impovershed people a bad name.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Norm, Northstar and others, I have a real estate question for you.
How come some of the core neighbourhoods (City Park, North Park) haven’t seen the kind of price increases usually associated with core property in other cities? Granted, the houses are older, but the one I bought is structurally sound. When I lived in Calgary (sorry to draw out the Calgary reference again, but it’s the only other city I ever lived in) I rented a room in a house in Kensington; my roommate/landlord was a realtor there and he sold his house for over $800,000. This house was very nicely updated, but it was over 75 years old. Then I moved back here late fall last year and bought a house (in North Park) that was just as old, not updated and slightly less footage for $165,000. You’d probably remember it if I gave you more detail, North Park houses don’t go up for sale very often.
I realize that $800k is a rather absurd example, but why is it that Saskatoon does not see to value the core neighbourhoods in the same way? Is it because it is still a relatively quick commute downtown from the suburbs, or is it that we don’t have a high concentration of working folk in the downtown core? I love being able to walk to work along the riverbank every morning, I would take that over a drive in from the ‘burbs anyday.
Rambling now. Just wanting some outside opinion…
May 14th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Wesco,
there are always speculators buying up property in any RE market. Last year I would suspect a bit more than usual. I think last years demand came from 3 sources.
1. People moving back from Alberta, still happening this year, I know of 3 families coming this year from there.
2.People who saw the takeoff and had the money, bought 2nd properties for investment from here and Alberta.
3.People who sat on the pot in 04-06 and didn’t buy or couldn’t at the time rushed into the market last year.
This demand and limited supply with bidding wars shot up the price the last year and a half.
I don’t see prices dropping because our lack of lot development the last few years( even though the demand was not there) only 500 lots per year until last year. I don’t see inventory ballooning to lower the prices.
Have you thought of building yourself? That is my plan in a few years.If you general a house out yourself you will save tonnes of money. But it isn’t for everybody.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
CA Student,
Here’s from Norm’s website:
http://www.teamfisher.com/Areas_-_North_Park/page_1722726.html
Judging by the chart, North Park has seen the same gains as the “Average house” in Saskatoon. City Park has an even steeper incline to the chart suggesting it’s seen more appreciation than the “Average house” in Saskatoon.
I think the main reason why it’s not like areas on the East side of the river is just that. This city has a piss poor attitude about being on the “West side” of the river because of sheer ignorance.
Your theory about commute times holds some weight too. Also, Saskatoon’s downtown core isn’t nearly as big business as Calgary’s. I’d be suprised if even 10,000 people work downtown Saskatoon and most of those jobs are service industry low paying jobs. You can bet that more than 50,000 work in Calgary’s core and it’s mostly 6 figure salaries.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Jonathon,
I agree completely. Touche on Northstar!
Eric,
You wish.
Sable,
Stop YOUR whining. Many people on here have worked just as hard as you.
Concerned,
I never insulted anyone’s parents, there is no “second” post. Todd tried to get in the last word and said he wasn’t replying to us “left-wingers” so when Alex (respectfully) replied to Todd, I informed him that Todd was “no longer with us”. It was immature how Todd handled our conversation. (see follow up post of him *wind blowing*)
I know this of Adster:
He’s accused me of being deeply bitter, resentful, and whiney.
He gloats about his soon to be paid off mortgage. (insensitive much?)
He implies that everyone should be able to benefit from the boom and is stupid not to.
He is a fan of bigger, better, faster, stronger.
All of those qualities I don’t respect in a person, so that’s all I need to know. I don’t claim to know anything else of his character.
I’ve been bullied plenty of times on here, and about the only person who’s stood up for me is Alex. (thanks) There are some of us with similar ideas and I guess we’re our own support group. Go team!
Alex,
That reminds me. You’re one of few people on here that have NO vested interest in what happens to Saskatoon. I appreciate you still caring about what happens here. :’)
May 14th, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Is this blog about real estate? Or is about personal attacks?
May 14th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Heather, just let it go, I’ve held off as much as I can, but I can’t let 3 posts by you directed to me slide by. Your immaturity is mind blowing, you Alex and Jesse come off as little kids having a temper tantrum because everyone won’t tow your line and be hugely sympathetic with you. It’s obvious the 3 of you don’t want anyone else to have real estate if you can’t, everything should be equal and we should all settle on the lowest common denominator of housing.
I think Norm described the down trodden group the best: “If the three of you get any more out of balance you’ll have trouble getting back on your feet. You are so totally intolerant it’s almost ridiculous.”
I’ll leave it at that and get back to real estate.
If you would remember back a few weeks I was giving some input on what I’m doing right now and fully acknowledged and realized that having been through the Calgary market and watching inventory sky rocket and sales plummet that I would be watching Saskatoon like a hawk for the same thing to happen. I don’t deny that it could happen in Saskatoon.
Having just closed on the sale of my house in Calgary today I feel lucky to be getting out of the market here (as I said before, it feels like I’m catching the last train out of the station as SFH invenory approaches 6500), because at the very least I think it will be flat(+/- 5%) for the rest of the year.
Now in Saskatoon if there’s appears to be a big wave of overbuilding (which hasn’t happened yet) combined with a ton of resale inventory I’ll have to make a decision as to whether I want to get out of the market or stay in it for the long term. I don’t see my mortgage as such a definitely 25 year commitment, I see it as a term commitment for what I’ve currently committed to, ie. a 3,4,5 year term that can be repaid without penalty at the end, which means selling the house. Maybe it’s because I’ve been working for just about 10 years straight and I might want to pull the equity out, invest it and travel the world for 6-12 months and come back and reassess the situation when I get back. I guess I’m not sure if I’m settling down for the rest of my life just yet, or even for the rest of my 20’s. I like to stay open and flexible and do what I want when I want, it’s the way I’ve always lived my life. It’s just life, I’m not going to let a real estate market, job, or mortgage own me. I prefer a hugely ambitious outlook on life.
I’m sure for some reason you’ll find my real estate assessment hugely insulting and disrespectful, so the comments should be interesting.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Wesco,
I’ve asked that question before as well. I believe there’s some real estate in here somewhere. You just have to pick through the mud to find it.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
So far all I’m seeing is a lot of mudslinging. Every time we try to stick up for ourselves from your never ending barrage of accusations of tangents, we’re hauled in for another round of guilt tripping.
Follow that up with a series of platitudes towards Norm just to feel all paid up and you’re 100% guilty of trying to manipulate the conversation.
Anyone who has come on to talk against the market has done so naturally. Your point is nothing more than the fact that people who threaten greed, in turn, threaten you. So they must be silenced or run out of the discussion with every nasty little trick possible. Common right wing shenanigans, I’ve already had someone agree with me on that in the past here.
Your arguments are recursive and you know it. Stop the game yourselves by not making so many irrelevant cheap shots. We then won’t feel so compelled to help you dig out of your assumptions.
Example:
“It’s obvious the 3 of you don’t want anyone else to have real estate if you can’t”
Hello? I have a house, in a different city no less! The only reason I speak here is because I can observe with my own two eyes what’s going on.
The only way you can top your ignorance at this point is by accusing us of sweeping generalizations. I’d say that’s the last trick in the book that hasn’t been done yet!
You seriously follow the pattern of desperate and frantic debating – to the letter!
Norm, sorry. I really am. But you can’t tell me these people are doing anything but leveraging the fact that our views are different to those normally found in real estate to tar and feather us.
It’s easy for them to drum up support in their own circles which are at best insular. But to a common public as is shown on your blog here when people of varying backgrounds come on, there is a larger concern not born of a single interest.
Follow any thread back to the beginning and it’s just accusation after accusation and countless completely off character assessments from the right. This is – what? – the third time I’ve had to correct someone on an assumption in this thread alone.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Alex,
Your primary argument is that no one is arguing with you in a proper to the letter debate style format. At least I tried to get back to real estate in my last post and would have easily left it at that. You could at least try to give it a rest. I know I’m done, I don’t ever bother getting into pointless arguments on the net. This must be your outlet to vent from the big bad real world that’s beat you down so hard.
May 14th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
Alex,
I can’t disagree. It would be best if we could all make an effort to refrain from judging the motivation and the intelligence of those we’re speaking to. As someone else suggested above, it’s okay to disagree. We don’t need to rip each other apart to make our points.
I saw a cute illustration online the other day.
One part normal person + one part anonymity + one part audience = one serious ***.
As far as I’m concerned, I can occasionally come up with an *** without the anonymity (me, not you).
May 14th, 2009 at 3:07 pm
Alex,
PS – I knew you had a house in Winnipeg, I was referring to having real estate in Saskatoon (the subject of this blog).
If the real estate boom happens to continue east to Winnipeg will that make you a capitalist pigdog for buying before the boom and gaining a paper profit at everyone’s expense? I would expect from your preaching that you would sell your house at the price you bought it and be homeless in order to give some other poor left out soul a chance at affordable real estate.
Ya I know, I kept on, now I’ll stop.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
“This must be your outlet to vent from the big bad real world that’s beat you down so hard.”
Zing! There it is again, you just gotta get that cheap shot in there.
How did you feel as you typed that out? Vindicated? Did you picture me sitting here curling up:
“Oh! I’m wounded! My reality….cra…shing….down…can’t…brea…walls….closing in – damn you Adster!”
Come on, man.
Again, I stick to what I’ve said already: Right wingers love to introduce chaos in the conversation and blame it on those they don’t share views with. It’s like they can completely disown their actions and remarks, derail the conversation and then suddenly force others to take the blame for it.
It’s like clockwork and magic at the same time. I don’t know what more you need for proof.
My prior “uncontested point” still stands: How can we aspire to market ideals already proven to create poverty and broad economic hardship?
May 14th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Adster,
My impressions of your comments closely match Alex’s. This is not a genuine effort. C’mon man! Please.
Alex,
“How can we aspire to market ideals already proven to create poverty and broad economic hardship?”
Some people are simply realistic about where we’re living. You engage the market on a daily basis as well. You may not like it but it’s kind of necessary when you’re living in a free market society.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Hey Adster,
I don’t mind what I can infer as questions in your last comment. I can for sure offer my own view and perhaps separate myself from others who wish for the market to outright crash. There are some things you mentioned in there which aren’t quite right and I suspect you haven’t been reading what I say very much.
As nicely as I can put this: try to pay attention.
As I have already stated, I don’t foresee or even desire a crash. I think if you read back I showed concern not only for current owners, but also the banks themselves! A crash would benefit us about as well as continued excessive investment activity. Neither makes for good community building.
There are lots of people who bought with no anticipation of a boom or at least accepted that the new higher prices were reasonable. That’s back when it was $110,000 to $150,000. In a lot of ways I could probably agree – even in spite of wages not having caught up to those levels. Saskatoon was a pretty good deal for the longest time. So is Winnipeg.
The first thing you need to understand is that I live in my house. From many peoples’ perspectives, it seems like nobody wants to actually do that these days. Not in Saskatchewan and Alberta at least. So I don’t own it to sell it.
The next thing is that I don’t want people to sell their homes in self sacrifice, what I’d like to see is more people living in homes. This is separate from investment which simply monopolizes housing without reason.
That is difficult for many people to understand when all they can see through to is MONEY. It’s a ludicrous concept because what’s more important than a glut of wealth at the expense of others?
Perhaps the wealth of the national economy? Perhaps the communities impacted? That affects you too in the end.
If you decouple what others have said from what I’m saying, you’ll very quickly see that I distinguish between those looking for somewhere to live, and those looking for a quick buck.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Norm,
I’m not dysfunctional by any stretch of the imagination. What people say about me here and what actually go on in my life are so completely opposite, it’s humorous. *Right-wing disclaimer: I didn’t say WHAT I VALUE in reality is different, please re-read.*
Simply that I do everything within my limits to make sure I’m doing okay. That means a little acceptance here, that means a lot of activism and opinions there, that means a little rest from the pressures of both over yonder.
We aren’t in a free market just yet. I know this because you would be as upset about it as I am if it were here.
We’re somewhere in between with distressing velocity towards the complete opposite of communism.
*Egh, another right disclaimer: I don’t advocate for Communism.*
There’s no rule that says we can’t be a little more dynamic about the problems we face though.
If that means differentiating between needs and greeds, then how is that different to what has happened in the past?
With markets consolidating and people being squeezed out of affording things they’ve had for so long why not?
All those resources being flushed into the creation of debt within our own economy. We’re feeding off ourselves rather than growing.
I could go on for a bit after this…
May 14th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Haven’t checked in today because of work, and it looks like a hockey game broke out here!
2:00 minutes for roughing, into the box you go!
In reference to CA Student’s post this morning about City Park/North Park. I love those areas, those are two areas that we were looking to buy in. Love how the houses are different, full of character, not “cookie cutters” that all look bland. Plus there are a lot of trees (on the Saskatchewan scale!), and that’s a bonus in my books. I think it could just possibly be the “east side” vs the “west side”. Hudson Bay Park is another example I have come across that has the same problem. Some call it the best kept secret in Saskatoon. There are some darn nice houses there.
I personally don’t like the newer developments, as it seems like you have to go through a maze to get in and out, plus they don’t actually have many trees and other neighbourhood adornments. Could be they just haven’t finished totally developing, and those things are to come. I know that is strictly personal preference on my part though.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Heather,
You didn’t make me angry. I made me angry.
I apologize for singling the three of you out.
Alex,
Your positions often sound reasonable when you’re not judging someone’s character based on a few sentences of text. We should all try to remember that it’s pretty much impossible to persuade someone while we’re kicking him in the ribs. If we aren’t sincere about sharing our views then we’re really just grandstanding for those who already agree with us.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Norm, just create a post or forum for the bad boys and girls who need a trip to the penalty box. The can insult each others upbringing, trash each others mommies. When they have had time to grow up, then they can join the bigger boys and girls at the big grown up real estate table. The name for this place should be as one famous hockey announcer put it, “The Chateau BowWow.”
May 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Alex,
I agree with you on your little saga with Adster. His shots are by no means adding to intelligent conversation. I have in the past thrown a shot or two in myself that didn’t add to intelligent conversation.
That being said, you are by no means immune to the “mudslinging” you’re cryig foul about now.
“Right wingers love to introduce chaos in the conversation and blame it on those they don’t share views with”
This may as well come directly from the Alex playbook. You yourself have done this on many occasions. Whether what you say makes sense or not is besides the point in that your ideas are usually presented in a chaotic way. Most of the time accompanied with generalizations of greed and who’s to blame. Anyone who disagrees usually gets painted with the Alex ” Ignorant, rude, greedy, right wing ” paint brush.
“What people say about me here and what actually go on in my life are so completely opposite, it’s humorous.”
I’ve thought the exact same things after your previous posts on past threads directed at me. You’ve called me many things of which none fits my character at all. I 100% guarantee that you would not be taking this kind of flack if you didn’t constantly throw it out there yourself first.
All of this is why I haven’t posted in response to you in over a month. Whatever I may type that doesn’t agree with you I’ll get back how I’m “ignorant and greedy” or “You make me sick”. Actual quotes!
You said to me in your last post:
“The trick is to pick things that truly are unworthy of your attention and handle them as such.”
You’re absolutely right and my reference to “this nonsense” was refering to all of the personal attacks taking place. A lot of which I find comes from you. (Not all of course as I’ve stated I’ve done it in the past too as well as many other right and left wingers here). Thus I’ve deemed the whole thing unworthy of my time.
The truth is that I know you’re an intelligent guy. Even though I disagree with a majority of your opinions, I also think you have some good points. It’s just very hard to grasp those points when others or myself are being belittled by your barrage of insults. I truly believe that some of your thoughts could be accepted if they were presented without such hostility. I sometimes wonder if face to face, you wouldn’t be a lot more charming in your approach. After all, what you’re doing here is contributing to the segregation between right and left wing view points. What should be done is to bring both view points together as one. After all, as we are divided as people, we are easily controlled by those who know the truth.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Johny,
Haven’t heard from you in a while. How about the Dow
. I admit that it’s a little early to tell but that bottom I called looks to be holding up quite nicely.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
“What should be done is to bring both view points together as one.”
You can’t compromise in this circumstance. The goals are exactly opposite.
“You yourself have done this on many occasions.”
“You’ve called me many things of which none fits my character at all.”
I totally disagree. Don’t lump me into that just because you’re taking a bird’s eye perspective.
I haven’t been insulting, I haven’t been doing any mudslinging. That you may feel somehow hurt over my mentions of greed matters not. The point stands without contest and it is a real issue rather than a misdirection.
You can’t absolve others by assuming everyone is at fault. Truthfully, the “right” – sorry for the distinction – is very much on the warpath here.
What else would inflame people such? Obviously it’s their cash cow they are trying to protect in all the lashing out. We have a thread 100+ entires long here to prove that. Go, follow the yarn back to the spool and you’ll see pretty clearly what I defined already:
“It’s like they can completely disown their actions and remarks, derail the conversation and then suddenly force others to take the blame for it.”
You fall for it every time!
For what I really have said: If calling a spade a spade means identifying damaging investment in our economy – so be it. At least I’m observing more than a tiresome and academic desire to never come to a conclusion.
This compromise culture and trend of acceptance has got to yield in favor of some real solutions eventually. Lest we be stuck spinning our tires forever wondering just how we can make lots of greedy people sopping wet rich AND keep inflation down.
I’m all up for a compromise, but the math isn’t there. So your kindness – genuine as it is – sounds a little silly to me.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Adster,
If lies make you feel better, fine. I won’t respond to them.
Norm,
I saw that illustration a while back, it’s pretty funny and rings true!
Alex,
It’s interesting, when I disagree with someone’s views they come back at me with unfounded accusations. ie. I think everyone that owns real estate is greedy, I don’t want anyone to have property in Saskatoon if I don’t, I want the market to crash and people to suffer. Maybe it’s because they can’t find enough dirt in the posts I write? If I began generalizing people’s posts on here I would be shutdown in no time flat!
Real estate stuff to please Northstar and Wesco,
I can’t wait for this week’s stats! It seems like a tonne of new inventory has come up.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Quite the tiff goin on here. Things seem to have gotten pretty personal… I’d much rather be debating the “Elliot Wave Principle”
but, alas, I’m all argued out.
I tried to argue the inflation issue and potential for meltdown early on but there’s simply too much momentum to push against. Alex, Heather D., honestly my opinion is that what’s going on is a problem. I think that Saskatchewan is being taken advantage of by outside investment. I’m afraid that our government is selling off the province that once remained defiant against foreign ownership. I firmly believe that city council is sitting on their hands while Saskatoon remains the most exploited real estate market in the country. And I have a sick feeling that we’re setting ourselves up to reminisce, for the next decade, on these years the way our parents did of the 1980’s.
One thing I’ve learned from Northstar and others in discussion about the issue however is that when a market like this takes off, no matter how nonsensical, you can’t fight the media machine. Think of the Station 20 West project being branded as a “government funded shopping mall” which is so far from the case it’s sickening but all it takes is a few catchy one-liners and the ball is rolling. We live in a media-infested environment where rational argument doesn’t really matter and sexy one liners sell.
You can take comfort in the fact that this won’t last. But you and others looking to buy into the market need to be rational, patient, and make your own decision. So many have an opinion of the way things are headed but you need to form your own based on common sense and your own financial situation. If your conclusion is to move like Alex, then that’s what you have to do… the same way people who moved here from Calgary did. Just figure out what you can afford. Keep saving. Don’t try to keep up with any jonses. Create a budget. Don’t get suckered into no money down, high interest, mortgages. Expect mortgage rates to increase by 2-3% in the next 5 years and build that into your budget. If you’re responsible with your money, stick tight to your budget, and realistic, there will always be an opportunity to buy a house and if you’ve filled the aforementioned criteria and still can’t afford a house, then take comfort in the fact that there will be a correction. But obviously we’re not there yet if there’s this kind of demand remaining (no matter how misguided).
I realize it may seem hypocritical for me to say this given all I’ve said about the market but honestly I’m trying to offer realistic impartial advice in such a crazy market for those who seem so frustrated. I’m lucky as well in owning a home and not being directly affected by what’s going on (although I am extremely aware). There’s a bigger picture to what’s going on past not being able to afford a house however.
We need to keep a close eye on how our government is treating our assets and revitalize the concept of resource sovereignty as well how our government is treating those who can’t afford to live anywhere let-alone their own house. Heath education, health services, job training, social programs, etc to revitalize those parts of the city that give us runner-up status on Maclean’s “Top 10 High Crime Cities”. And the biggest issue of all being the fact that Saskatoon’s children are not being protected from what’s going on in our westside.
I don’t think that getting personal on this forum will help any of these issues get solved.
Northstar,
I rarely keep much of an eye on the Dow as I think it’s a diluted and highly manipulated forum. I’ve been watching the TSX like a hawk though. I think once we move past 14000, we’ll start to see some confidence back in. I’d moved all of my money into commodities, half on the TSX and half on the Venture as I feel that the Venture is undervalued and the TSX is less volatile. I took my money out of tech and out of financials, I’ve lost faith in both. I made a good play with HTC.V (carbon capture) when I caught wind of the federal budget’s inclusion of the $250M for carbon capture technology (even though I’m sickened at the fact that it was our tradeup for dropping equalization… thank you Mr. Wall). Heavy on Uranium recently too, it’s extremely undervalued. Gold and Silver too (under your advice). What are your thoughts?
J.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Yes I also believe the real estate market in Saskatoon is a media driven market, I feel sorry for those people who bought with this horrible one liner “If I don’t buy now I will never afford to buy..” that is a horrible way to buy anything, that’s some heavy pressure and probably leads to these individuals leveraging their life to buy a place.
For investment, I would definitely stick with the TSX and look for stocks in oil and gas, (Suncor has been a strong performer for a while and once this new 20 billion dollar project is completed is 5-7 years their stock will sky rocket again)and look for stocks in Construction Companies, Aecon was the best performing stock on the TSX last year and their a solid construction company centered on Infrastructure and heavy industrial, both industries that aren’t going to feel any pinch if there is a slight recession.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:16 pm
Johny & Wesco,
While not “all” of it is media driven, there is certainly a LOT of pressure, just like both of you mentioned. It is absurd that first time buyers are made to believe if one doesn’t get in now they’re S.O.L.! As long as a person is doing their best to save I think it’s much better to wait until the craziness of this market has subsided, rather than feeling pressured.
I haven’t had the time to look into that Station 20 West project to know why the government rejected it. It SOUNDED like a good thing, but I don’t have all the facts. All I know is some places on the westside could use a LOT of help!
May 14th, 2009 at 3:17 pm
Johny,
Fantastic post!! I couldn’t agree anymore.
Nice catch on “HTC”. The venture is undervalued but that’s as manipulated a market as there is. So many times a venture company does a PP to raise money, then the institutions come in right after and drive the price down. Long term gold and silver are going to make a lot of people money. I do think there will be some more buying opportunities for gold and silver over the next year. Then all bets are off.
The U.S. market will seem to recover over the next year as it is an election year and we all know that certain people need votes. (among other behind the scenes stuff). Look for the start of a complete collapse of the U.S. around this time next year which of course will deal a big blow to Canada. The international bankers need this to happen to further their agenda of a one world government.
For those who don’t know, the “North American Union Act” has already been signed to create a borderless super union between Canada, Mexico, and the U.S. A brand new currency will be introduced much like the Euro, and the best way to put it in place is to collapse the economies so that the people will be begging for it.
Check out a company called Plexmar Resources “PLE.V” It’s very high risk right now but it has the potential to be a monster (Like 3000% on your money type of monster). They have a huge property that’s full of gold in Northern Peru. There’s literally millions of ounces of gold on their property. Some samples taken have returned well over 100g/ton of gold.
That’s the good news. Here’s the bad
For the past year and a half they’ve been trying to get approval from the locals to drill. They need this approval to go forward. Northern Peru is apparently very unstable and many mining companies have been shot down by the locals because of their aggressive tactics. Plexmar has been patiently waiting and recently recieved an invitation to present to the local community which takes place this month. Word has it the the locals are very intrested in working with Plexmar.
Some other negatives are that the President and other board members are Geologists and not buisness men. They have stated things in the past and haven’t delivered. The stock is also quite dilluted as it’s currently a .20 stock with 135 million shares.
In conclusion, it’s very high risk but if it hits it’s very high reward.
A second stock I just recieved word on is KCL.V (a potash company here in Saskatchewan). I haven’t done any DD on it yet but I hear good things.
If I could short the Saskatoon real estate market I would in a couple of months. For all those who accused me of pumping just to enhance my portfolio, I’m now calling for a downtrend to start come June / July. All this while still having a full portfolio of Sask houses. In fact, I’m only selling 1 property in the next month or so because it doesn’t cash flow and I don’t want to get caught holding it in a downtrend.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Man,
Are those monthly stats slow this month
May 14th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Northstar,
I spoke with Harry Janzen at SRAR yesterday and he told me they’re getting close on the stats.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:18 pm
I know the PLE story very well. I’m in it. It’s my riskiest by far. Guy’s work’n pretty hard at what I think is called the “social agreement” or whatever that’s required in the region. I’m optimistic but certainly not borrowing against my holdings just yet
Agreed on Venture manipulation but I’m of the opinion that many awesome companies get a bum rap for sitting in the pump n dump pool. What I’ve been watching for are near-term producers or partial-full scale producers like AUN and CGK. Sorry everyone for the non-realestate buzz but always interested in off the cuff investment talk.
J.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Northstar,
I have predicted a slow down this summer since last fall. Are you sure you want to join the club? “EVERYONE” is still saying things are going to heat up! :’)
I indirectly know one guy who’s renovating a few houses in Saskatoon and Regina hoping to flip them in the early fall. It seems pretty late in the game…
May 14th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Norm,
By the time they get around to March stats, we will be in May.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:19 pm
The real estate board needs the extra time to fiddle with the numbers to show how hot the market was in March and how now is the time to buy, or be priced out forever.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Johnny,
Well my opinion wasn’t solicited here but regardless let me give you my 2 cents as far as stock picks. Gold juniors, in general, seem to be more fairly valued and haven’t seen the huge increases proportional to the gold price and the majors.
I particularly like NGG.v, or new guinea gold, trades on the venture. As you can guess, they own a number of mining projects in new guinea. What I like about them is they already have one mine that just entered production and the market seems to value the company based on that mine alone. It’s an open pit operation which, together with the low cost of labor, leads to cheap costs and they should generate a reasonable PE ratio (comparable to other juniors) based purely on that mine. They are expecting to produce 35000 oz a year from the mine, with costs of $120/oz (I know it sounds unreasonably low but even if you double or triple that figure the numbers are OK) and a fully diluted market cap of $100 million. As far as I know they don’t have any hedges. I think you are basically paying for the current mine and the 7 or 8 other mines under exploration are just gravy.
On top of that you have large previous mine finds in the region and a relatively stable political environment.
Check into it and double check EVERYTHING I just said of course. It’s one that I have skin in but to be honest I only know what I’ve been able to dig up on the internet. If you know of any other good quality, cheap and politically stable junior golds, please let me know.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
distrustful,
Surely it can’t take two full weeks to “fiddle with the numbers?”
SRAR launched a completely new MLS system last month so there have been some challenges with it. To make matters worse, they learned afterwards that the system is not set up to crunch the numbers the way that they’ve been done here for years. They are working on delivering some programming that will do that. SRAR reports on units reported sold during the calender month.
I will soon be doing my monthly review which crunches the numbers based on the contract date. I have to wait a couple of weeks to ensure that the majority of the sales done in March are reported before I pull mine.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Here’s a guess for you though.
Based on sales reported firm in March, I’ll say 370 units at an average of $286,000. I think that will be close.
Sales written in March: 335 units at $291,000.
Using either method, unit sales will be down 10-15% from the same month last year and the average sale price will be up 45%+.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Heather,
Lol! Yes I’ll jump on the slow down bandwagon. I’m fully aware that increases of this magnitude can’t continue forever. As I stated last summer, I just call it like I see it (regardless of my position) and right now I’m seeing the final tardy people to the party through June. After that our over extended market will take a much needed break.
Johny,
Another Lol! Good to hear you’re in. I do believe that Guy is working hard but man… talk about undelivered promises and lack of informative news. I originally bought “Ple” at the beginning of 06′ for around where it’s at now and sold later for .90 a share. Then I bought back in beginning of 07′ starting at .57 and have watched it go south for over a year now. I’ve kept adding the further it’s dropped and now I’m sitting at around a .34 average. If more “delays” happen I’m out but I’m thinking this could be the time. I’m also a big fan of Yamana (YRI) as a mid cap.
Something,
Thanks for the heads up on NGG. I will do my DD on it. I’ll let you know if I come across any “must owns”
On a side note, I bought “ARU” around the same time I bought ple back in 06′. I made good money on it as I sold at $4.00 a share so I can’t complain too much. However, I then watched it go to $40.00 within another 3 months.
May 14th, 2009 at 3:21 pm
Northstar,
Glad to have you onboard! ;’)
May 14th, 2009 at 3:22 pm
Heather:
I am so glad you figured out I was referring to you too……. I was a little worried