(but I think everyone agrees they’re just trouble)

For the current circumstance we already know that investment has created barriers for first time buyers.

As I’ve said before, I don’t see every real estate investor as a parasite and I accept the fact that we need people who are willing to be the landlord, at least right now. I don’t think I know a homeowner that didn’t rent at some point. It tends to be a stepping stone that follows “leaving the nest.” Therefore, I’m open to liking some of them and meeting someone is helpful in making judgments about whether or not I can like them. I don’t expect you to accept my opinions about him simply because I’ve “met” him. I’m simply explaining that my opinion of him is based on more than blog comments, just as my opinion of you extends beyond what you’ve written here. I’m still open to the idea that I could be terribly wrong about both of you.

I’m going to try as best I can to assert at the start here that I’m not burning you alive. But I take some offense to a few things you wrote which are just not true:

“You rant and rave, one long run on sentence after another. Sometimes, I don’t even understand what your point is. You talk in one big huge circle with sniper-like warfare.”

First, I don’t use run on sentences. There are periods, hyphens and commas. I try to space it out as best as possible with paragraphs for you.

Second, I don’t understand how the length of a point invalidates it during discussion. There just seem to me far too many rules! Perhaps during advertising we should keep it short, but I just don’t respect the notion that I have to communicate in mini blurbs.

“I don’t mean to undermine your opinion, as certainly this country needs a left-wing side.”

This is interesting and I had to smile because your sub-point ultimately is “we must regulate left wing views”. Hehe.

“That those investors have existed here certainly did not help my cause to purchase a home in Saskatoon.”

It is also unforgivable. They already have a home, why should they hold their wealth over your head?

“However, you are grating all your frustrations about everything that is wrong in Canada towards one person.”

This is another important one I need to clarify right away. I do not direct it at him specifically. I think generally speaking we avoid discussion with each other at this point. Save for his occasional jeers to tell me that he knows who I am and that I don’t know him. Or the baffling revelations that keep me up at night.

I respond as needed to ensure an incorrect point does not go uncontested, it is pretty reasonable stuff. As I am doing with you here.

I don’t see what he intends to accomplish towards me except be spiteful.

“I don’t agree that what he has called you on (being as greedy as everyone else) is true.”

Thank you.

“Now, I find his opinions are a little more moderated-very unlike yours.”

Again. Moderate. Define to me what moderate is and how the exact opposite of what is going on now is in any way wrong. Generally I admit we do not live in an extreme-right situation right now, so the “opposite view” does not imply extreme-left.

I have advocated my appreciation for balance as it is something I have spent a long time coming to understand.

What I will tell you though is that you will not accomplish balance by maintaining current practices and decisively unobservant policies – and that’s going either to the left or the right. This “hold the line” mentality only goes to serve whatever new limits the wealthy have managed to claw for themselves.

It is as I’ve explained before the “ratcheting mechanism” the right uses consistently every time the economy changes.

Why have we as a society lost our ability to travel left on the spectrum all together?

Norm,

We all learn and I think that’s good. I do not see him or any investor as a beast…But more not acting on his certain knowledge of the reality of this situation. How many exceptions are allowed when considering the impact of investment?

Are the only good investors ones we’ve met? We can’t generalize in their defense like that.

I am open to more elaborate explanations, I just haven’t seen them yet.

The wealth of the people in the nation is suffering because they cannot compete with those better off than them.

Callum,

I continue to read your quips and find that they still contribute nothing but poison to the discussion. Anonymous as well, bravo.

One more thing. I need to learn a little more about our immigration policy. Recently, a Pakistani gentleman told me that if he stays settled in Saskatchewan for three years that he is allowed to bring 10 other people here. He predicted that over the next ten years the Caucasian population will be the minority group. I’ve often thought that the “coming home” factor could be major at some point but I hadn’t ever considered our province to be one which might be attractive to Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants. Who knows.

I think that you’re about right when it comes to Northstar. He takes a terrible beating around here. In most cases when he has crossed the line it comes after a massive attack on his character and unfounded judgments on his motives. I also couldn’t help notice that he is one of a few who is able to say, “I’m sorry.”

Sometimes his enthusiasm and his willingness to openly share his ideas are mistaken for pumping. Like you, I can see him learning from his experience here.

He once tried to buy one of my listings so I have had the pleasure of meeting him and looking him in the eye. He doesn’t have horns. He’s pleasant and polite. Clean cut and modest. He was forthright and honorable in his dealings. He struck me as someone who probably does care about people and his community.

There will always be a need for people who are willing to invest in real estate and rent to others. Maybe it’s not ideal, and yes, everyone should be able to own a home but until we have that figured out we need people who are willing to take some risks and invest money in that area. I feel pretty confident that Northstar probably isn’t the kind of landlord that we’ve heard a lot about around here. There are some good landlords out there and I’m willing to bet that he’s one of them.

I may be burned alive for this but, I feel compelled to give you my two bits. I cannot imagine that you have re-read your argument. You rant and rave, one long run on sentence after another. Sometimes, I don’t even understand what your point is. You talk in one big huge circle with sniper-like warfare.

I don’t mean to undermine your opinion, as certainly this country needs a left-wing side. But, jeez, even I get a headache trying to read most of your sentences and make sense of what your point is.

It may be that Northstar is a RE investor who is out to make a profit. That those investors have existed here certainly did not help my cause to purchase a home in Saskatoon. However, you are grating all your frustrations about everything that is wrong in Canada towards one person. So far, Northstar, in my opinion at least has been very upfront about his opinions on specifically what is happening with the real estate market. I don’t agree that what he has called you on (being as greedy as everyone else) is true. What I have learned is that everyone thinks that everyone else thinks like they do in their darkest corner. So, the person that screws you over, thinks that you would do the same to them in the back of their mind and acts on it. I do think in the past that Northstar has certainly acted to pump the market up here. But – has he been wrong – no. Now, I find his opinions are a little more moderated-very unlike yours.

Heather – I think you are on the right track. I think you have made some very valuable contributions to this discussion. I really do believe that affordability will come into play. It is tough to see right now – one of the things I am curious about is the very open immigration policy SK has right now. Immigration (I mean not provincial) certainly played a huge role in the Lower Mainland of BC. BUT – I also see that market as continual growth. There will allways be new migrants there. That now may be true of SK? It isnt just about the oil, uranium, ect. There are lots of factors – But I do believe eventually there will be a dip in this market. When – I don’t know.

You’re still not listening. My emotional beliefs and my outlook on the market are two separate entities, I’ve never equated them! That’s like saying my anger over getting burned will somehow change the Saskatoon market!? I don’t believe that so stop implying that I do! This is why I’ve accused you of trying to discredit me. Either that or you’re summarizing my posts inaccurately.

I’ll say again, just because you don’t think my points are good enough to be argued, that’s simply your opinion. Unlike you I DO believe affordability will take a toll on the housing market, and you can’t convince me otherwise. Either way we’ll find out this year.

Northstar,

Again, more substance and turnaround. Lots of peoples’ opinions count when they are not my own. Where do you come off saying that? I think we need to refer to what I said earlier: “Your connection to your own personal situation does not some how differentiate it from others doing the same.”

This applies in the sense that you feel as though because I’m contradicting YOU, I must do it to EVERYONE.

A helpful reminder: You still avoid the bulk of what I say. Especially the free market and heavy right capitalism.

That in itself is enough for you…but…

I hardly see the reason why you even bothered responding to me except to rub your anonymity in my face? I’m still at a loss to understand what kind of image you want to convey with intimidation. Again, it must be another snub nosed tactic, because I don’t see the purpose?

One thing for sure: It doesn’t put any weight behind all these selfless revelations you graciously offer me. You’re right, I really don’t have a concept of myself, I’ve been misguided all my life long.

Going out and getting a home and doing what it takes to make a good situation for myself without destroying the market shows my poor judgement. Indeed having been told by at least one other person here that I “call a spade a spade”, and countless others personally doesn’t count for squat.

Explain to me how even after getting a home (that I underbid on), I am somehow wrong in my views? Again, these patterns of thinking you force on others are so baseless and superficial. By all rights if I behaved like every other linear and careless man and woman out there, I’d have stopped caring the second I got my house.

I don’t pour over the values in Winnipeg, far from it. I’ve since shut that information flow off completely. I’m not waiting for the moment my house jumps in value to sell out and run the treadmill. I’m still here on a Saskatoon forum!

Somehow though, I think consideration for others does not come naturally to you and that is made most clear by your statements and fear of being personally associated with what you say. It is just too much of a stretch to see the sense in anything more than greed.

Anyway.

The proof is in who I am, what I’ve done and what I do. For you? You’re at best an impediment to the helpful ideas others bring up here.

Not many posts of Norm’s go by when discussing cost & wages without some new face coming on and voicing their frustration.

Proof proof proof, I don’t think you need anymore.

You are right, I did provoke that name calling in that circumstance. I apologize to you. As I have stated though, most of my name calling is in response to the derogatory names flung in my direction. I will however stop as it is childish. My posts in regards to your statements have never been about your ethical points of view ( As I agree with a lot of them ). My points are in response to market direction only.

I might add that early in this thread all I asked for was some unemotional facts to back up either side of the argument (from anyone). The reason I asked for “unemotional” is because a persons ideological belief of which way a market should go has nothing to do with which way a market goes. The same goes for people who want the market to go up. In response to me asking that simple question, I got from you a paragraph on why your emotions are valid and u.s. politics. I never said your emotional beliefs aren’t valid. What I’m saying is that emotional beliefs can’t be used when talking about what direction the market might go. I do listen to what you say and maybe there’s a mis-communication between yourself and I. I’m still not quite sure if your arguments are just venting about what’s happening, or whether they’re your reasons for the market heading south.

In the end, what’s frustrating for me is that when you bring up how inventories are up over last year… If I say yes they are, but demand is up an equal amount too, then I’m attacking you and it turns into something that’s blown out of proportion as the responses go down the thread. If someone else brings it up, then you seem to have an intelligent debate. All I want is intelligent debate without mud slinging.

Alex,

Enough please. You are the king of people’s opinions not counting if they’re not the same as yours. This will be my last post in response to you, as you and I can’t seem to have a civil conversation. Quite frankly, I’m tierd of it. I used to blame everything and everyone for my misfortunes as well. No matter what you say against it, I can see through it. The very hatred and backlash against those with money and how they should give up their money is greed itself. We all have a certain level of ego Alex and I can admit that I have one. That ego helps me a lot in certain situations and it hinders me in others. I learn everytime it hinders me. I won’t call you wrong in pointing out my ego, however you’re clearly throwing stones from the biggest glass house of them all. I look forward to the day I can hold up the mirror to your face and show you how you look like everything you despise. Of course you don’t want to see that, do you? I have given you multiple chances to prove me wrong. I will admit most of your posts have been frustrating for me. I will no longer get frustrated or upset by your posts. I will smile because I know who you are.

I really like how highlighting a point made as opinion somehow dulls it into a meaningless statement.

First two people can’t share an opinion and now they aren’t allowed to have a statement count if it is an opinion?

Yikes.

It seems to me that you spend a lot of time trying to use very reliable tools of side debate to take the steam out of people you disagree with. Rather than admit anything you whip out these – and I must say – very effective tricks.

Table turning, opinion scoping, hypocrisy, astonishment and “stay on topic”. It really is fantastic to watch you at work! It is a potpourri of all the nastiest irrelevant tricks every right winger loves to use to turn it into an upstaging battle rather than a discussion grounded in reality.

Your economic perspective is so isolated and bottom line oriented, you fail to realize the pillars your world lives upon.

Let’s find the tracks now…

To me you keep trying to pinpoint my own greed – humorous at best. Wild stabs at the dark do not become true the more feverishly and the more pointed you make them.

When you want to talk facts, try to answer everything in full instead of sniping the bits the greed policies are all window dressed for.

Although from me, I’ll tell you now and I’m being upfront: I actively seek out to inform people in this matter.

You cannot distance from it with a high opinion of yourself. Your connection to your own personal situation does not some how differentiate it from others doing the same. You have no reason to be upset with me now because I have always been here, helping drum up awareness for the damage the investment is doing. Something has to be done about this. However much money can be made and however you feel a market should exist never ever precludes THE PEOPLE.

These free market ideologies are plutocratic at best and would put society on the fast track back to serfdom and slavery. Snap out of the money trance and take a look around, there are more people than wealth available in the economy right now. We need structure and we need a way to work together, not COMPETE.

I must add to the bit about ego stroking, because I do find this to be a caveat in your nature. In fact, not only your own, but also other people who have posted here sharing your views.

It seems to be that jeering is part and parcel of the nature because you will try to provoke those of us who feel strongly about the situation. Once you get your reaction, you return to your civilized irrelevant debate routine with the added punch of having a dignified “oh how unmoderate!” tone.

Northstar says:

But, but you can’t prove…

Alex says:

Go find them yourself!

You are predictable and that is why you get tag (and triple?) teamed.

Allowing the people to own homes is important – rich or poor.

It was plenty easy to find, thanks:

“ask for some unemotional facts, and I get tag teamed by the dynamic duo.”

“All I ask is that I can come on this blog and talk about real estate without being called derogatory names.”

Derogatory, inappropriate, enough said. I haven’t done that to you. You’re a hypocrite, and that’s not me calling you a name, it’s right there in your posts. It isn’t your place to determine what people talk about on this blog, that’s Norm’s job. If Norm finds my posts irrelevant or inappropriate he has the power to delete them. Initially I did not direct my “emotional” debates towards you, this is a group discussion. If you don’t think my posts are relevant to real estate, then don’t respond to them.

And just because you’ve had amicable discussions with Johny that doesn’t absolve you from accusing me of “grasping at straws”. If the points I make hold no credibility why are you always chiming in to try and disprove them? I’m sorry my arguements aren’t “good” enough for you, but that’s soley your opinion.

“You try and discredit everyone who has a different opinion then yourself”

This statement is completely false as I have constantly acknowledged good points that I don’t neccessarily agree with. Go back to my debates with Johny for reference.

Yes I am here to talk about real estate in Saskatoon and hear opinions about the direction of the market. I you feel I’m stroking my ego than that’s your opinion. All I ask is that I can come on this blog and talk about real estate without being called derogatory names. As for your reference to me calling people names, I rarely do it. If I do, it’s only in response to what’s been thrown my direction. Please copy and paste some references where I start the name calling process. If I do this, they should be easy for you to find.

And I think that about sums it up. Speaking personally, I do have family in Saskatoon. When and if I do get my house sold here I will be looking at moving there for all the above reasons. To answer the people asking what Saskatoon has to offer to justify the price increases; well, for me and I suspect many like me it’s just that …the small town feel in a full service city. There are also expectations at work here. I seemed to me about 2 years ago everyone in Calgary got the idea that Saskatchewan was going to be the next boom. Suddenly I stopped hearing about people thinking about moving there and started hearing about people who had moved there. Suddenly everyone knew someone who was gone or going.

There’s nothing stronger than an idea who’s time has come … and maybe there’s no more to it than that.

It may get to a point where employment prospects come into play.So far in Calgary sending out resumes still brings quick responses for interviews.I haven’t had that experience with any opportunities I’ve persued there.

Maybe I’m only employable in Alberta but I suspect employment and wage growth (perhaps perception of same) may become a factor as the spread narrows and ex pats face carrying a mortgage with their new life style.

Good point that you raise. How many Saskatonians have left this province to chase other opportunities over the years? Many of them have reached a point in their lives where money isn’t such a big problem? For them, “coming home” is an attractive option even if housing is ridiculous. If you’re fairly well set up financially and your parents are in the final phase of their lives it might make a lot of sense to be near them.

2008 will turn out to be another strong year of positive net migration. I am getting far more inquiries from people who live outside of the province then I am from within. Many of them think prices are simply goofy here but they have the resources to handle it.

Thats the million dollar question on continued migration. I don’t know what will happen… the banks don’t know and site this as one of the biggest unknowns in our market.

Maybe Albertans are coming here purely for speculative reasons. Maybe they hate the rat race in Calgary and want the smaller ‘town’ feel in Saskatoon. Maybe they have friends and family they have always planned to come back to. Maybe things are softening in Alberta and Saskatchewan has better prospects. Maybe maybe maybe and no one knows what started it or how it will end.

If its mainly for investment speculation then this bubble could burst soon… if its mainly for friends and family or quality of life issues, then this could be a long term trend.

that area is Nutana that you mention. I would guess the most paid for a lot 50 * 150 would be at most 350k in that area. Factor in tear down and other costs it would be pretty expensive just to start building. But if money does not matter and you love the area, why not?

Again I’m guilty of judging a book by it’s cover. Thanks for the insight. I thought it was a good location.

Heather;

Nothing wears off. You just suppress it to fit in.

Both of those listings are in a VERY desirable location (at the risk of sounding like an anxious realtor ). Kilarney is just southwest of downtown and is essentially on the west portion of 17th ave… the “red mile”. I suppose the closest thing saskatoon has to that area would be south side of the river up by broadway or between broadway and clarence, whatever area that is. There are some pretty run down houses up there selling for a pretty penny.

J.

I’m surprised everyday in this market! Are you saying this eventually wears off? :’}

These properties are listed in Killarney. It’s an older area in South West Calgary. That is an area that depending on your point of view, could be classed as “historic” or sometimes “run down” some really nice houses some not so much.

There has been a fair amount of development on an ad hoc basis; not anything huge that I can recall seeing. Good location for getting out of Calgary to the west (isn’t that cynical).

It’s doubtful to me that there will be much interest at these prices. But I refuse to be surprised. It seems that some realtors are hearing “If you list it they will come”.

I really don’t know where the logic is sometimes but I haven’t lost anywhere near enough money to be calssed an expert in the field.

Those are some bizarre listings! Did you take a look at the ones I listed a day ago on this forum?

Maybe the people who listed these are totally off their rocker and will never be able to sell at their asking price? I don’t see how your 1st listing (being sold as a lot) could be DOUBLE the price of the nice houses I saw listed between 300K-350K, which includes house AND lot. LoL

I don’t know Calgary that well, perhaps the properties you listed are in an ULTIMATE prime location?! Can anybody explain this?